Pick your side

[RodKnock]

This thread is about picking sides. Since when did Buzz have to give equal time to both sides of the argument. It's a parody. Humor. Why so serious.

[REAL 1]

You can pick a side without attacking people personally but then again we're in the wrong cobra web site if you don't want or like personal attacks.

At ease. Carry on. Sorry.

[Naumoff]

What is Team Shelby's point of view?

What is it that SAAC owes Team Shelby?

Help me Understand.

LOS ANGELES — Carroll Shelby has terminated his company's licensing agreement with the Shelby American Automobile Club.

The 85-year-old car builder and former race driver has demanded that the club turn over its financial statements and all Shelby-related merchandise. The 5,000-member organization keeps records on Shelby cars and verifies their authenticity.

"They've made hundreds of thousands of dollars from my memorabilia and have never shared the financials," Shelby says. "I want the registrations and records under my control."
The club filed a lawsuit on Jan. 28 in U.S. District Court in Boston asking that it not be forced to turn over documents to Shelby. Carroll Shelby's lawyers fired back with a lawsuit on Jan. 29 in the Superior Court in Los Angeles County, demanding all documents. On Jan. 31, Shelby ended the licensing agreement.

The 33-year-old organization has been licensed by Shelby since 1999.

Rick Kopec, the club director, says Shelby can have the license back but says all documents belong to the organization, adding: "Shelby's problem is that he can't control us."

He wants the registrations and records under his control? What does this mean?
The registrations and records for what?

It sounds like he want the "Registry". Is this correct? How can he own the registry?

He ended the License agreement for the use of the Shelby name and everything that is licensed under his name. OK so was this 1999 agreement a set up to try to get control of the registry.
Can someone clarify this, please?

Thanks

[turnpike boy]

It would seem, absent any other strong motive (i.e., "hundreds of thousands of dollars"), that CS is just plain pissed off that SAAC has become the real (REAL?) clearing house for anything truly Shelby. And that appears to be the predominantly compelling reason - that he just ain't respected, at a level he deems appropriate, as the Guru For All Things Shelby.

To be the Guru, of course, would dictate a focused, driven mindset that would enable one to have all the answers.....a position that CS demurred on a very long time ago. Life goes on, and there were other projects and involvements that he found more rewarding, financially and egocentrically, for him to be too concerned with achievements made 40+ years ago. Hey, who lives in the past, right?

So. If it IS the money, then it should be a fairly simple matter to go thru SAAC's ledgers and see just exactly how much was made and reach an agreement of what he is due.

However. If it ISN'T the money, then it is going to be a long and bitter fight that both will become buried in. Provided SAAC has the wherewithall to sustain such a fight. And CS has made it very, very clear that he sees the fruits of SAAC's labors over the years as having risen from his accomplishments, thereby making what's theirs, more-than-equally his. Sure, they're entitled to some level of $$ for their clerk skills, but what they derived could not, and would not, exist had he not made it possible to begin with.


-Roger

[thudmaster]

I may be one of the few that does not have a beef with shelby or saac. I just wish like the rest of you it would resolve itself quietly and with dignity.
This fight is going to effect us all no matter who makes our cars...shelby included.
I will say this though, when people ask me if mine is a cobra I tell them its a roush superformance. Then nobody gets mad......

[Buzz]

I think Amy expressed her reaction quite clearly and didn't leave anything out. My subsequent post further carified anything that may or may not have been understood. I have not been contracted by either side to illustrate any point of view other than my own or that which I choose to depict. Satire is just that, and is not obligated to be either fair or partisan to any side of the argument. At least my posts remain topical and do not place my own personal, non-relevant issues and obsessions above the the subject at hand. 'Nuff said. Back to the REal topic.

It would be great to hear from Shelby Licensing's point of view exactly what their real beef(s) is (are) with SAAC so we can understand what's behind the action. If its simply a matter of perceived personal slights, unreturned phone calls and a testosterone driven urination contest; a good mediator as suggested would have little difficulty working towards a compromise in which Shelby gets his due respect and SAAC maintains the integrity of the registry. If, as has also been suggested, the motivating factors are far more numerous and complicated as well as deeper and darker than the above, then the possibility of amicable resolution is less likely. Brace yourselves for a battle.

[lovehamr]

Come on Buzz; just a little smoking hole in Ol' Shell's foot. Just a little one. You wouldn't hardly be able to see it.

Steve

[Nedsel]

If we are to accept the reasoning of Turnpike Boy, it would seem that any car club - organized for any reason - if they make a small profit, should give some of it back to the manufacturer of the car. I wonder how many car clubs realize this? Maybe we better check with the various Corvette clubs, for example, and see how much they pay General Motors for their hard work in growing their local organizations.

[Excaliber]

Accepting that reasoning would include ANY club of ANY nature. Elvis fan clubs? What are they paying for the use of the name to the family? Book clubs? The list goes on and on. Club Cobra? Kit car manufacturers? Oh wait, we all ready covered that base, Shelby lost, kit car manufacturers don't owe him a dime. Complain all you want about it, it's a done deal. Why? Because he walked away from his Cobra legacy the shape/design passed into public domain. Think of it as an expired patent if you would, things aren't forever.

There are paralells here with the current suit(s). Did he abandon a 'registry' he never had anything to do with in the first place? What gives him the right, legal or moral to, in my opinion, steal the hard work of the SAAC owners, their 'Club'? Frankly, I don't believe he is entitled to the SAAC registry, under any circumstances, period. He wants to start his own, fine, go for it. While there was a 'contract' is it still binding after being ignored for so many years? These are some of the legal questions that will be answered, no matter what the final rulings no way both sides are gonna be happy with the resolution.

[Excaliber]

There was some talk about FORD going after 'clubs' who were using Ford owned emblems, logos, etc. By the way, Ford OWNS the name/word "Cobra", not Shelby. A club, "The Black Mustang Club" made a calendar, there was some huge confusion as the printer didn't want to move forward for fear of copyright issues. Heres a brief look at Fords official response:

The Black Mustang Club and other Ford enthusiast clubs are encouraged to take pictures of their own vehicles for use in calendars or other materials as long as they don't use Ford trademarks in products that will be sold. Clubs or enthusiasts who have questions regarding this should contact Ford by emailing branduse@ford.com, we are happy to help.
In fact, Ford is contributing to these types of enthusiast programs in forums, blogs and other social media platforms through our Social Media Press Releases at Ford Motor Company - digital snippets
I think it is great that the Black Mustang Club, and any other enthusiast club, would take pictures of their own vehicles for use in calendars or other materials.

One of the most fascinating comments from FORD was that THEY WERE FOLLOWING the forum conversation concerning this issue on the Black Mustang web site! WHOA, are they reading CLUB COBRA as well, right now??? Hi Edsel? How's the family?

See the full report here:
Media.Ford.com: FORD SUPPORTS BLACK MUSTANG CLUB’S WISH TO PRINT CALENDARS WITH OPEN LETTER:

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Come on Buzz; just a little smoking hole in Ol' Shell's foot. Just a little one. You wouldn't hardly be able to see it.

Steve

Artists want their art to be theirs. If he changes it with your suggestion, it becomes partly your art. Suggestions can be very irritating, frustrating, insulting; I can't find the right word for it. Don't expect Buzz to change his art.

[Buzz]

Lol! Actually, I like the hole-in-the-foot idea, I wish I had thought of it myself! It's especially relevant since it would be an accurate depiction of the way most enthusiasts feel about Shelby's chosen course of action. Most concerned parties feel that whatever short term gains he hopes to realize will be eclipsed by the damage he does to his public image, reputation and the value of the products that bear his name. Paul, I know what you mean about these artists; they're a petty, sensitive bunch. I'm not one of them, I'm just an ordinary guy who happens to be able to draw.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Artists want their art to be theirs. If he changes it with your suggestion, it becomes partly your art. Suggestions can be very irritating, frustrating, insulting; I can't find the right word for it. Don't expect Buzz to change his art.

???????????????????????

I hope no one took my tounge in cheek quip as "irritating, frustrating, insulting".

Buzz, if that's the way you see it, know that it wasn't meant that way.

Paul...uh......whatever.

Steve (with no art quips)

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

If we are to accept the reasoning of Turnpike Boy, it would seem that any car club - organized for any reason - if they make a small profit, should give some of it back to the manufacturer of the car. I wonder how many car clubs realize this? Maybe we better check with the various Corvette clubs, for example, and see how much they pay General Motors for their hard work in growing their local organizations.

Hmm....nothing like over-generalizing the intent. I haven't seen where GM has sued any Corvette club, as of yet - in marked contrast to CS vs. SAAC. Do you think, maybe, that distinction might have some bearing?

And do not put words in my mouth, sir. Nowhere in the post was there any support for CS, as you tacitly infer; it might be distasteful to acknowledge the realities here, but the thought that this will be adjudicated 100% in favor of EITHER party is naive and puerile. You DID have a handshake licensing agreement, did you not? Do you truly believe that SAAC is made of whole cloth, and will be given absolution by any court?

This fight is for the continued existance of SAAC - an appropriate and desireable outcome. The extensive work done by the club is, beyond any doubt, of incredible value, tangible and otherwise. You have the obligation - to yourselves and those who depend on you - to ensure the continued viability of the club. If your assets are so large that you can simply choose to draw a hard line in the sand, congratulations. On the other hand, you might choose to consider the alternatives, and prepare for same.

-Roger

[Nedsel]

Roger, much as I might like to, I have no involvement with SAAC's decisions as they involve the current legal feud. Whatever course is determined will be chosen by Rick and Ken.

What I disagreed with earlier were three specific comments you made: the first suggested we go through SAAC's ledgers, see how much money the club made, and reach an agreement on how much of that Shelby is due. Why? Their is no language to that effect in any of the club's organizational papers. SAAC already pays royalties on the sales of things with his trade-named images. Do you think Shelby should receive some kind of cash reward because SAAC works hard to promote his brands and image? I can't think of a rational reason why.

Secondly, you commented that "Shelby has said that the fruits of SAAC's labors have risen from his accomplishments. thereby making what's theirs, more than equally his." He may believe the first part, but I can't possibly see how anyone could agree with the second. The 18-hour days Kopec spends running the club, and the organizational and financial effort Eber provides to handle day-to-day business, print the magazines and newsletters, pull off conventions, and the like - do you actually believe that Shelby should get a greater share of the return for those? Be honest.

Finally, you state that SAAC is "entitled to some $$ for their clerical skills, but what they derived could not and would not exist if he had not made it possible to begin with." OK, then, if SAAC is to pay Shelby for all the work its officers, contributors, registrars, and other people perform, can you help us determine how much we should also pay to AC Cars and Ford Motor Company? After all, what he derived could not have existed either if they had not made it possible to begin with. For some reason, however, I don't see either knocking on the door and requesting a cash reward for the labor of others.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

Hmm....nothing like over-generalizing the intent. I haven't seen where GM has sued any Corvette club, as of yet - in marked contrast to CS vs. SAAC. Do you think, maybe, that distinction might have some bearing?

And do not put words in my mouth, sir. Nowhere in the post was there any support for CS, as you tacitly infer; it might be distasteful to acknowledge the realities here, but the thought that this will be adjudicated 100% in favor of EITHER party is naive and puerile. You DID have a handshake licensing agreement, did you not? Do you truly believe that SAAC is made of whole cloth, and will be given absolution by any court?

This fight is for the continued existance of SAAC - an appropriate and desireable outcome. The extensive work done by the club is, beyond any doubt, of incredible value, tangible and otherwise. You have the obligation - to yourselves and those who depend on you - to ensure the continued viability of the club. If your assets are so large that you can simply choose to draw a hard line in the sand, congratulations. On the other hand, you might choose to consider the alternatives, and prepare for same.

-Roger

Roger,

Ford did go after the Mustang clubs, then backed down. GM has a strong hold on the Corvette Club, but at the same time they realize without the Corvette club, their profit margin will suffer. Ford also realized that without the MCA and it's loyal members, their bottom line would suffer too. A case in point was a certain Randolph based Ford dealership who left a certain north Jersey Mustang related club hanging in the wind for $1,500 in funds for their car show. 14 months later the club and it's small membership of less than 120 caused a drop in sales and service of over 38%. Two year later, what was once a prosperous dealership is now struggling for sales and service business.

Bill S.

[turnpike boy]

You've taken my comments totally out of context.

NO - I do NOT agree that CS is automatically entitled to a percentage of the club's revenues - and never did. Further, it was not made clear, to me at least, that SAAC ever paid ANYTHING, license notwithstanding, on what they sold, nor that they had any obligation to do so. If those obligations did in fact exist and have been met thru the years, then NO, CS is not entitled to anything beyond that agreement. My comments were based on the understanding that, if money were the issue, then resolve of this should be fairly straightforward and quick.

You are absolutely assured that I do not think CS is entitled to profit from the efforts to the club - beyond what they already apparently agreed to. Anything else he sees he deserves is exclusively subject to negotiation and/or agreement. I never said I agreed with his perspectives - never. What I said was it was clear how HE saw things, and thereby manifested his beliefs in the form of a lawsuit. Please read what I wrote.

Finally, with regard to SAAC's "clerical skills", on my own review it is apparent that I did not convey what I intended. First of all, my sincere apologies to SAAC and its' officers if my words appear condescending - what was written was intended to convey the attitude and perspective that CS has pretty clearly taken with SAAC, and written in that format as a response to Tony's posting. At no level do I ascribe to the views CS maintains; in my book his contentions and conclusions are vapid, malicious, and essentially without merit. The relativity of Ford, AC, etc. is as stated before - they haven't sued - unfortunately, CS has.

-Roger

[Nedsel]

Roger, your clarifications are appreciated, as they better explain where you really stand.

[turnpike boy]

Ned, I'm rigidly in SAAC's corner. No exceptions.

[rdorman]

Wouldn't it be nice sometimes if threads like this where a poll and no one could respond? Not that it would not stop someone from starting another thread on the same topic but still, nice to dream a bit. This is f^&ked up situation no matter how one looks at it. Lose lose = Lose lose. Don't ask who is losing what. If one has eyes half open you know what.