Roush Crate Engines

[rdorman]

Both good engines from good people. Wouldn't you prefer something in your hemisphere?

[mercman]

Chris L
Shelby has a new aluminum Windsor block that is available in two bore sizes:
4.030 & 4.125
Roush just started buying this from Shelby so you might want to talk to Todd Andrews or Mark Yegalo about these blocks. They use the Shelby FE block now.
FYI

[Keithc8]

We can and do any combination that Roush does for about 1000.00 to 3000.00 less and stand behind our engines just as well as they do. We have very few problems so this is never a big deal. We custom build our engine to each customer and not a cookie cutter engine. We have been doing these small block stroker longer than anybody. We can do the stack injection or anything else that you might want for that matter. You can even call and talk with me if needed. Thanks, Keith Craft

[Chris L]

Thankyou to everyone who has replied, I do appreciate it.
I will take this furhter on the phone and make some enquiries

Cheers
Chris L

[427SnakeSC]

Keith Craft built my 427 SO. Great people to work with and an excellent product! IMHO.

[john chesnut]

The Dragon is a sports car that I built from scratch and sell as a kit. It is based upon the 58 Lister Knobbly, but is not a copy. It uses either a steel space frame with C-4 Corvette suspension or an aluminum semi-monoque chassis with Corvette C-5 suspension. I had not intended to sell it as a kit but some people wanted them so I have.
The Dragon is light and great handling. You can see them at Dragon Motor Cars, Manufacturers of Supercars
My new project, which wil be done in May in an aluminum chassis, C-5 Corvette with a fiberglass/carbon fiber body Cobra. I like cars with balance, handling, and good street manners. The car will accept either Chevy or Ford small block engines and has a total weight of 1900lbs. I will sell the complete kit, with new Corvette parts, for $29,900.
If any one is interested in more info email me or call me at 603-504-4106.

[Manowar]

"This post certainly does not look good for World products, I would like to see a reply from Man O War." -Roger.


Mr. Chesnut,

I am normally very respectful of a thread such as this, started by Chris L, which inquires about competitors products. I have no wish to divert his question and the information given him by forum members. I could have explored this in a PM or contact by phone. To leave an unanswered public stain would have left readers with an even dimmer view of BMP. You of course certainly have the privilege of freedom to express your views.
Since forum members have been very kind about my product postings from time to time, I was startled to see your negative comments and the story of your bad experience with our product and our staff. Nothing like this has come to my attention. I needed to understand how this could happen.
To that end, I spent the better part of today looking for answers. Searching our records, I found that the (only) most recent purchase you made (using your full name) directly from us was on May 26, 2004, Sales Order Number 28249, for a set of 4.125 x -20cc dish SBC pistons, rod and main bearings, assorted gaskets (no pan gasket) totalling $880.36. Notations on the comment lines read "427 aluminum head engine, file fit rings". Also "John, don't forget to rebalance the crank". There is no record of a complete engine purchase. The Salesman ID number was of a salesman who left us in early 2006 so I couldn't even ask if he remembered that circumstance.
I then visited your very nice site and was impressed with your Dragon- chassised vehicles and the results you achieved in competition. The address displayed matched our Sales Order. There was no record of any purchases in the company name of "Dragon".
Careful review of your post does not reveal whether the problem engine was SBF or SBC-we make both in 427 sizes with 4.125 (but not the same) pistons. You don't reveal when this happened.
I at first assumed you bought our 427 Man O'War World Class 427 for your latest Cobra project. But I can't find a record of that. I would like to, so that I can research the Work Order Number and find out exactly who built it and what the specs sheets and dyno sheets revealed when it left us. We just don't send stuff out like that and me saying "it happended long in the past" is BS-there's no excuse. But you've made forthright claims in a gentlemanly manner, of your intention to tell the world about lousy parts and service from us and I respect that.
Although other members here give testimony to your quality products, service and ethics, I request adequate information so I may substantiate your claims.
I'm not acting as a company rep here, I'm trying to decode this on my own. Many of us here have high personal standards and ethics as well.
I'm not questioning your veracity. Bill is away right now, so I've only what you provide me and this forum to go on. With only 9 posts, I had to to a lot of digging to take your claims as credible. Now I'm trying to present a balanced and fair response.
If you did buy a complete engine in that condition with all the details as you presented, please let me find out where we went wrong. If we in fact $hit the bed, I'll post that. We pay money to be here and it kills me think we alienate the very guys we're trying to build parts for. I owe it to the forum members to do so. If all is as you say, you have regrettably paid a lot of money to extract your 'pound of flesh'.
I too have a little of that 'personal integrity' you allude to 13 posts above, and so this requires an effort on my part to get to the facts.
Apologies to Chris L.

[john chesnut]

Manowar, I respect that you want to check into the situation and I am happy to help. I am a new club member. In 2001 I designed and built my own car, Dragon. I use Corvette suspension so I used Chevy engines. I recently have been building an aluminum chassis Cobra with a fiberglass/hybrid body and with C-5 Corvette suspension. I will offer this as a kit along side my Dragon so I decided to check out the Club, which I then joined. I think that Cobras are awesome cars and I am happy to be able to net work with other like minded people.
I take giving negative information about a company very seriously and would not do it if I didn't know that I was wronged and that I could prove it. The engine I purchased was the the 427 street aluminum chevy. I paid $8995 for it, $9171 total with shipping. The date was 7/20/01. The invoice # was 0031213-IN, order #0020427. I have the dyno sheet dated 6/29/01. Work order #1703, pull 2662. It showed 538hp, 527.9torque.
Obviously this situation ocurred some time ago and hopefully the engines have been sorted out and customer service improved. I was and still am disappointed that Bill, who I spoke to personally would not stand behind his product.
Here is what happened in detail.
- I was building my dream car. I read all of the car magazines and saw write ups and ads for your new 427 aluminum head chevy engine. The ads touted that the engines were far superior in workmanship and parts to regular crate engines and that they were covered by a warranty. I belive it was for 24 months or 24,000 miles.
- It was my intention to show my car and take orders for kits so I decided to order a "bragging rights" motor from you.
- I received the engine the summer of 2001 Right away there was a problem. It had a single plane tall manifold on it as oppossed to the the dual plane that the ads and your direct info showed. The result is that it would not fit under the hood of my car. I called you and was told that the engine in the ad was an early piece and that all engines now came with the single plane. (super victor?) I was told that I could not switch the manifold with out making a cam change. And that your company would not exchange the engine for one with the advertised parts.
- I was late for Run n Gun where I wanted to debute the car so at the last minute I cut a hole in the hood and had the air cleaner sticking through.
- This car was shown on the cover of Kit Car with a full article about it that included touting your engine.
- At that event the engine smoked badly. And the hardcore distributor blew apart.
- I sent the distributor back to you along with a letter and video expressing my concerns over the smoking.
- I received a new distributorfree of charge. Invoice #0031911-IN
- I talked to I believe, Mike and was told that the smoking was because the rings were not broken it. I was told that I needed to run it for a few thousand miles.
- I was not completely happpy with the firs Dragon design so I pulle the drivetrain out and over the winter redesigned and built it. The engine had 128 miles on it. I was on the second set of plugs.
- In the late summer of 2002 I got the new car on the road. I took it to Run and Gun again. The car was again selected to be a full feature car in Kit Car. It was also selected to represent the Kit Car industry at SEMA and was selected as one of the 7 cars nationally to be on displayed and honored at the Hot Rod Hall of Fame dinner which is held during SEMA.
- I put about 3000 miles on the car during 2002 and changed plugs every 100 miles. I was in regular contact with you about the situation. And was still being told it was rings.
- In the spring of 2003 I asked that the engine be replaced under warranty. The 24 months was running out. I was told that I probably had defective valve seals. That on your early engines umbrella seals had been used. They were larger in diameter than the inside diameter of the inner valve springs. I pulled the valve covers and discovered all of the seals pulled off of their seats. Your tech guy had told me that the seals going up and down on the stems acted as pumps and forced oil past the valves.
- I replaced the seals, at my expense. The owner of the local speed shop which I purchased them from was shocked that 8 cent seals had been used on a $9000 engine.
- The seals help but did not eliminate the problem. I expressed my concern about this to you. The car was going up for the winter and I was afraid of not being covered by warranty if the smoking continued.
- In the spring of 2004 I found that the smoking had not cleared up. I was told by you to do a leak down test. I did the test (I do not remember the numbers) and relayed them back to you. I was told that they were low but should still come up with more miles on the engine. I asked for the engine to be covered by warranty and was told to contact the independent company to which I had mailed the warranty card to. I asked what card? I was told that there was a warranty card included with my paper work that had to be mailed in when I got the engine. This was the first that I had heard of this and I had never receicved a warranty card.
- The customer service guy at this point told me that he was tired of dealing with all of the angry engine customers. That the company was having lots of problems and that he was quitting over the situation. He gave me Bill's direct line at that point.
- I discussed the situation with Bill. He asked me details about the installation and at the point that I told him that I had swiched oil pans and put on a road race pan he put an end to the discussion. He told me the switch voided the warranty.
- I pulled the engine and had it torn down by a local engine builder. I ordereed pistons, rings, and bearings from you simultaneously. The builder called me and told me to cancel the order for the parts as the only thing wrong with the engine was that the rings were all gapped way to big. They were gapped to .058! He told me that he could get me the bearings and rings at his cost. I canceled the order with you. I was told that my Credit Card would be credited. Was it?
- When I discovered that the issue with the engine was due to workmanship I contacted Bill again. He said that even if the rings were mis fit the fact that I changed the oil pan voided any obligation that he had. I was pretty upset at this point as he wouldn't even cover the cost of parts and labor to fix it.
- I told Bill in writing that I thought that his business practices were terribly wrong. That if he wouldn't stand behind his product that I would let my customers know. I also threatened to take the issue to court. But after evaluating the time and money expense to litigate on Long Island I decided to drop the issue.
- I ran the engine for an additional 8000 miles with out a problem. And now the engine had real pop.
- I believe that my engine was one of your early ones and that they hadn't been completely sorted out. But rather than make things right for customers that paid BIG BUCKS your company made a decision to just write them off.
- My Speed Shop owner, Andy Hoffman, saw Bill at a trade show in 2004 and brought up my situation. His only response was that I voided the warranty by switching pans.
- I was so disgusted by my experience that I pulled the engine out, wrapped it up, and put it in storage. I didn't want your company to get any advertising from me. It still sits waiting for me to decide what to do with it.

I own several businesses. Dragon I do for fun. My reputation is of utmost importance to me. I wll go way beyond the call of duty for my customers. I expected the same from you. (Obviously when I refer to "you" I do not meant you personally.)

Feel free to contact me directly if you would like. John

[lovehamr]

Somebody pass the popcorn!

Steve

[Cashburn]

When you are putting big bucks out there for an engine... ask who is selling the warranty? Is it handled internally by the company or do you send a card off to "Dell Financial" or something similar.

Our 2 preferred engine suppliers warranty their own engines. They do not buy you "a warranty" from another company. This is important.

[trs900]

I was very interested in the 460 all aluminum engine for a future project but reading this I am thinking other wise.. I know there are 2 sides to each story but so far John's side seems to have the most meat behind it, IMHO.. I have had similar things happen to me but never said anything, Cashburn is right about the secondary warranties... most suck. Stick with an engine builder who advertises regular on this site and I think you will be OK.

[Manowar]

John,

I appreciate your candor and presentation of facts. It helps explain many but not all things.
The main thing that your original post did not reveal is that this did not occur in the current timeframe. That's why I couldn't figure out how this happened.
Further-you left ambiguous the fact that this was a SBC in a Roush engine thread. I jumped at a conclusion. Still, posting a bad experience, regardless of brand, with a builder is overall beneficial for forum members. It's just important to state a frame of reference.
I came here in 2005. Things are way different now and all those personnel are gone from 2001-except for Bill himself. Little did he realize that a hard-a$$ed decision he made in 2001-2004 would come back to bite him in 2008.
I can tell you that competition and the web has brought about vast changes here over the years and in his thinking. He knows the value of customer service and the power of the web.
For the record: a systematic QC system is in place which gives the builders finite and uniform procedures to follow. So all engines spec correctly whether the builder is a 5 year or 20 year-experience guy. None of the 'yeah but I do it this way' stuff-they all do it the same way. All blocks are honed, decked, align honed, deburred and prepped uniformly.
No more exploding distributors-they're either MSD Ready to Run billets or E-Curves.
At the dyno, every engine is compression-tested, leaked-down and compression-ratio checked. Dyno operators can see any 'smokers' immediately. It will never get out of here. Our hone procedures work very well with our Total Seal rings. ALL rings are gapped between .018-.022". I have no explaination for .058 other than the hone was possibly too aggressive causing immediate and high ring wear which would spread the gap real quick. That's not an excuse for your treatment and you should not have been BS'd about it.
We DO still use those 8 cent umbrellas! Reason is they work well in street applications despite the wives tales. They do NOT stay on the guide-they're designed to ride up and act just like an umbrella over your head on a rainy day. The only reasons they won't work are when oil drain-backs in heads are too small or if blocks need restrictors in gallerys to prevent filling the top of an engine with oil.
About warrantys: Our's is with Charter Warranty a large and reputable underwriter. If a customer follows the procedure stated on the Warranty Card enclosed with every engine, here's how it works. All claims are handled by Charter-however for the first 90 days, we pay full costs to repair. For the next 90 days we pay for all parts and Charter pays labor. After 180 days Charter pays all-this assumes you've abided by the terms. We can do the repairs (freight is on your dime) or an ASE Certified facility as stated in the Warranty terms.
Your oil pan situation: Today an optional custom pan can be ordered from us initially with the engine order-the engine is built and dynoed with it. Or, if a customer buys our engine with the provided pan and finds he needs to change for fit reasons, he can do so without voiding the Warranty provided he uses an ASE facility.
I recognize that this is all of little consolation to you and you'll never be a World/BMP cheerleader. You have a lump on the floor for which you've paid hard cash.
This is truly a shame because we have technically, the best blocks and heads out there-the Man O'War and LS Warhawk are clearly superior. The new Hemi is a smashing success.
I just hate to lose guys like you because of poor thinking, corner-cutting and poor behavior. Those days are over.
Thanks for taking the time to set the facts straight.

[Manowar]

Originally Posted by trs900

I was very interested in the 460 all aluminum engine for a future project but reading this I am thinking other wise.. I know there are 2 sides to each story but so far John's side seems to have the most meat behind it, IMHO.. I have had similar things happen to me but never said anything, Cashburn is right about the secondary warranties... most suck. Stick with an engine builder who advertises regular on this site and I think you will be OK.

trs,
I would remind you that we are a sponsor and builder "who advertises regularly on this site".
Nor does our Warranty "suck".

[Silverback51]

I'm impressed by your straight, honest reply.

[john chesnut]

I'm still in business. You are still in business. Your company could still make it right. And, I promise you that no warranty card was sent to me.

[Manowar]

I have no doubt of your honesty. I'm just saying that now every one goes out with all it's documents. We apparently had some very slipshod practices then.

[john chesnut]

Manowar, I have said my peace and will let it go. I trust what you say and that new procedures are in place. I wish you the best. John

[trs900]

Originally Posted by Manowar

trs,
I would remind you that we are a sponsor and builder "who advertises regularly on this site".
Nor does our Warranty "suck".

Quote--he can do so without voiding the Warranty provided he uses an ASE facility---Quote

I assume this means that he can't change oil pan himself ??
Most of the Cobra owners I know can do better work than a lot of the shops.


I said most secondary warranties suck, I am not sure about yours, I have had several experiences with secondary warranty companies and after trying to jump through hoops for them I gave up, hell one of them went out of business after I paid $1200.. there is nothing like the manufacturer backing their own product IMO.. especially on extended car warranties.. The new car I bought has a 5 year warranty and 500HP..

Like I said every story has 2 sides.. and it seems Bill is still in charge and was in charge at time this all unfolded.. and if what John said is true Bill blew him off. I would assume Bill has changed his way of thinking as you stated.. and every one deserves a second chance.

Exactly what would be the warranty on the 460 and if there was a problem who would take care of it as I may reconsider my options.. by the way I have never blown a engine in 42 years of licensed driving. before that ?? LOL

Thanks

[undy]

Restitution has been requested .. and .. assuming all things are as they were represented, should be most graciously rendered, IMHO..

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by trs900

Quote--he can do so without voiding the Warranty provided he uses an ASE facility---Quote

I assume this means that he can't change oil pan himself ??
Most of the Cobra owners I know can do better work than a lot of the shops.


I said most secondary warranties suck, I am not sure about yours, I have had several experiences with secondary warranty companies and after trying to jump through hoops for them I gave up, hell one of them went out of business after I pay $1200.. there is nothing like the manufacturer backing their own product IMO.. especially on extended car warranties..

Like I said every story has 2 sides.. and it seems Bill is still in charge and was in charge at time this all unfolded.. and if what John said is true Bill blew him off. I would assume Bill has changed his way of thinking as you stated.. and every one deserves a second chance.

Exactly what would be the warranty on the 460 and if there was a problem who would take care of it as I may reconsider my options.. by the way I have never blown a engine in 42 years of licensed driving. before that ?? LOL

Thanks

American Home Shield is one that is a royal pain.