Continuation CSX a "Kit car"?

[CSX 4039]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

At least one CSX that I personally know of was literally a 'kit' car assembled by the owner himself from parts acquired from various sources. I suppose there may be others.

Goes back to pedigree I reckon. A Vegas assembled car vs a Mexican car vs assembled by a recognized Shelby dealer vs a 'home built'. The lines do get blurred along the way.

Maybe you could call the original 60's Cobra's "factory-built kits", since CS assembled parts and seemed to put in them whatever he had at the moment (427's/ 428's, whatever). A look at the shapes and specs sometimes seems like practically no two were the same...

SAAC calls the 60's cars "original" and the later vehicles "authentic", I believe....
Seems fair.

[mrmustang]

ANyone else notice the hit and run tactic of the original instigator of this thread. . Seems to me like Evan borrowed a friends AOL account and decided to come out and play after all.

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

ANyone else notice the hit and run tactic of the original instigator of this thread. . Seems to me like Evan borrowed a friends AOL account and decided to come out and play after all.

Yes but this does raise an interesting question.

I guess it would be state by state.
In MD we have salvage titles. This is issued when a car is totaled and then bought my someone. They use to not give you a title from the junkyard.
I bought a parts car 25 years ago and all I got was a bill of sale.
Now we have salvage titles.

Question 1; If you change the frame on your car(if your car has a frame) can the car retain the same title?

Question 2; What came first the chicken or the egg?

question 3; Was this discussed before?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Naumoff

Question 1; If you change the frame on your car(if your car has a frame) can the car retain the same title?

If the frame is legally changed by a licensed body shop and under the direction of the insurance company, then yes, it can retain the same title. In my last case several years ago, a 2005 (4 months old, less than 1,000 miles on it) F350SD that was run over at a quarry by a larger vehicles. The insurance company spec'd a new full frame and cab be swapped in and it was.

Originally Posted by Naumoff

Question 2; What came first the chicken or the egg?

The egg came first, the chicken was a genetic mutant to whatever laid the egg in the first place and a new species was born/hatched.

Originally Posted by Naumoff

question 3; Was this discussed before?

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But does it really matter what they are called just as long as they are enjoyed by their respective owners?

[Lowell W]

I don't see why it's a dumb word. It's a continuation of production. Shelby stopped production of the Cobra in 1968 and started again in 1996. What other word would you use to describe it?

"Resumption"

Or..."Resumption under fraudulent terms: ie outright lying about the origin of the chassis in an attempt to cash in on the popularity of a car he had turned his back on 30 years ago."

I'm sure there are other equally appropriate adjectives.

Lowell

[ANB]

MrMustang,

Not intended to be a "hit & run". Not able to get back to the computer until now. Many interesting views. My real reason for asking the question relates to language in a proposed bill in NJ that I have assisted on to get certain exemption status for the "replicas" and "kit cars". I noticed on a website for a new CSX Continuation Shelby Cobra that it was being sold as a 1965 Titled car. I spoke to an owner of a CSX Shelby this past week at a local cruise night that recently registered his car in NJ as a 1965 with no problem.

So, if they are "replicas" (real or not) how are some making it through the "system"? In some States, "Kit cars" and "replicas" are treated differently.

Just trying to do my part to help improve the titling and registration process in NJ.

Al

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by ANB

MrMustang,

Not intended to be a "hit & run". Not able to get back to the computer until now. Many interesting views. My real reason for asking the question relates to language in a proposed bill in NJ that I have assisted on to get certain exemption status for the "replicas" and "kit cars". I noticed on a website for a new CSX Continuation Shelby Cobra that it was being sold as a 1965 Titled car. I spoke to an owner of a CSX Shelby this past week at a local cruise night that recently registered his car in NJ as a 1965 with no problem.

So, if they are "replicas" (real or not) how are some making it through the "system"? In some States, "Kit cars" and "replicas" are treated differently.

Just trying to do my part to help improve the titling and registration process in NJ.

Al

In regards to the titling of any cobra (replica, continuation etc) that was not originally built in the 60's, NJ is culling their records as we speak and knows the difference between serial number series and what they are and when they were built. If SAI chooses to issue you a MSO that says 1965, yet all of your documentation states it was built in 2008, then the state views it as a 2008 special construction vehicle and will title it as such. Anything else is a fallacy that if you check closely, could get you in a bit of hot water for falsifying government documentation (IE: fraud or title fraud is what NJ considers it), which could lead to your car being impounded, and you heavily fined. If you bring a car in to state that is already legally titled as a 1965 "whatever". NJ takes those on face value and will issue you a title "like in kind" and it will be viewed as a 1965 "whatever"......Of course then trying to get Historic plates is where you may run in to problems....Collector registration might be the way to go in that case.......


Bill S.

PS: Spent 11 years working with the NJDMV and the NJRC (New Jersey Replica Club) on such clarifications.....With the closing down of the NJRC and several of it's more active participants no longer interacting with the NJDMV, things have gotten muddied up in the political arena.........

[ANB]

Bill,

Thanks for the feedback. There was a Bill introduced in Assembly several weeks ago and a similar one to be introduced in the Senate this coming week. Both proposed Bills were reviewed by SEMA and suggested changes were made. If you go to the ffcobra forum you can see email threads and a copy of the proposed Bill.

Hopefully there is alot of interest and support from the NJ enthusiasts whether they are already registered or not. All can support the proposed Bills by reaching out to their legislators.

Al

[Excaliber]

Titling any MODERN Cobra (built after 1967 by other than AC/Shelby) as purely a 1965 is fraught with all kinds of potential problems and it has nothing to do with the car being a 'kit' or a 'continution' or whatever you want to call it. People HAVE gone to jail for doing it incorrectly, others are getting away with it, for the time being. The laws vary from state to state, but make no mistake, it's playing with fire. A MODERN 1965 Cobra titled as such in one state and sold in California as a 'real' 1965 could be a serious problem down the road.

Shelby's MSO, as I understand it, correctly identifies the car as a 1965 MODEL, which should not be confused with year of build. Likewise Hawaii law recognizes my Cobra as a 1965 MODEL, but the title also specifies it as a 'street rod' (Hawaii's way of saying 'modern replica').

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Lowell W

"Resumption"

Or..."Resumption under fraudulent terms: ie outright lying about the origin of the chassis in an attempt to cash in on the popularity of a car he had turned his back on 30 years ago."

I'm sure there are other equally appropriate adjectives.

Lowell

What you are talking about, are different cars. Those are "completion" cars. Cars claimed to have been slated for build in the 60s, and finished in the early 90s using original parts.

It would have all been legit if Shelby hadn't made the whole thing up, and created those cars by contracting McCluskey to built them from sctratch.

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

If the frame is legally changed by a licensed body shop and under the direction of the insurance company, then yes, it can retain the same title. In my last case several years ago, a 2005 (4 months old, less than 1,000 miles on it) F350SD that was run over at a quarry by a larger vehicles. The insurance company spec'd a new full frame and cab be swapped in and it was.



The egg came first, the chicken was a genetic mutant to whatever laid the egg in the first place and a new species was born/hatched.



over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

But does it really matter what they are called just as long as they are enjoyed by their respective owners?

I was talking about frame swaps.
I call mine a POS.
And I really don't care which one came first, just thought I'd throw that one in for good measure.

[Excaliber]

Excellent point Sal, and NOT thread drift as I see it. The discussion as to titling, vin numbers, completition series, continuation series, kit vs factory and home builts are all part of the soup (or can of worms as the case may be).

Good question concerning HOW a fellow would secure the parts to build his own CSX in his own garage. In addition, how does it get titled and what vin would it use? Such details are not typically discussed on a public forum...

It will be interesting to see how the registrys handle this, Team Shelby registry and SAAC registry.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Good question concerning HOW a fellow would secure the parts to build his own CSX in his own garage. In addition, how does it get titled and what vin would it use? Such details are not typically discussed on a public forum...

You can't "build your own CSX". If someone were to allocate some CSX "parts", turn them into a car, and add their own VIN, that would be an "air car". I know there are a few cars floating around with CSX bodies or chassis that came from rebuilds or swaps. I don't believe any of them are on the road yet, so I don't know "how" they are going to be VIN'd.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by ANB

MrMustang,

Not intended to be a "hit & run". Not able to get back to the computer until now. Many interesting views. My real reason for asking the question relates to language in a proposed bill in NJ that I have assisted on to get certain exemption status for the "replicas" and "kit cars". I noticed on a website for a new CSX Continuation Shelby Cobra that it was being sold as a 1965 Titled car. I spoke to an owner of a CSX Shelby this past week at a local cruise night that recently registered his car in NJ as a 1965 with no problem.

So, if they are "replicas" (real or not) how are some making it through the "system"? In some States, "Kit cars" and "replicas" are treated differently.

Just trying to do my part to help improve the titling and registration process in NJ.

Al

We have a Registration Forum as well as a search function. If you need help in understanding how to find or use them, just let us know.

[RedCSX1]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

Not a dumb question, I was dumbfounded at first as well.

When I had 4819 on order, and guys like Jdog and such (with 4795) still hadn't gotten their cars, CSX 4855 popped up for sale on ebay. I contacted the seller and asked how that could be possible, that a car over 50 numbers ahead of what had been delivered, could have been available. The response was that it was 4750, re-VINed. The reason? I have no idea. I verified it with a few people I knew, and the current owner posts on the Shelby forums.

I still have no idea why it was re-VINed. My guess would be that maybe it was stripped down and rebuilt, as the first bunch of CAV cars had some serious quality issues.

As I stood looking at CSX5750 at the Las Vegas Shelby Operations with some key Shelby Manager/employees I was told that CAV did such a poor job building the car that they decided to start over with it. It then became a Las Vegas built car and not a South African built car. I do think they said they ended up replacing the frame.

[fostereast]

One way to look at it is that in the sixties, Shelby sold CARS, now he sells PARTS. When you put them together, is it a Shelby? In my opinion, it's a home-made car using parts Shelby sold you, that affords you the opportunity to list it in various Shelby registries. Otherwise as far as I know, it's illegal to title/register it and drive it on any street in the USA.

[RedCSX1]

Incorrect: Remember that the Cobra roller which is a car without motor trans and drive shaft is only a small part of their business currently. They are also building GT500 and GT-350 with Ford just like they did in the 60's. I think currently the only other manufacturer that builds a more complete roller might be SPF.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by RedCSX1

Incorrect: Remember that the Cobra roller which is a car without motor trans and drive shaft is only a small part of their business currently. They are also building GT500 and GT-350 with Ford just like they did in the 60's. I think currently the only other manufacturer that builds a more complete roller might be SPF.

Well, yes, and no, in the 60's you could title (MSO, whatever) a Shelby right out of their shop, they sold (93% of the time) complete cars and as each year progressed they changed the year on their titles (or MSO's as the case may be).

Fast forward to 2008 where they cannot sell a turn key car directly from Shelby and as such cannot be considered a complete automobile, but instead can and usually is considered a "component vehicle" finished off by the end user or his agent. As for titles (MSO's), since they are now being reproduced in the present, shouldn't the titles (MSO's) read the year they are actually manufactured as to not misrepresent them for something they are not? If Shelby was just building a continuation of his original series (which he is), then don't you think they should be marketed as 2000-2008 Shelby Cobras instead of 1965 Shelby Cobras (as listed on their MSO's and literature)? Again it's more a marketing ploy than anything else, if you buy in to it, great, but do not expect everyone else to blindly follow along.

Bill S.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Again it's more a marketing ploy than anything else, if you buy in to it, great, but do not expect everyone else to blindly follow along.

Bill, some people just hate it when you jump on the truth....

[fostereast]

Shelby makes parts. He might fasten some parts together, but he does not make cars in a way that they are legally cars by today's standards.

I don't think Shelby is listed as a "Manufacturer" like Saleen so Shelby does not make cars. (I could be wrong about this and maybe Shelby is listed as a "Manufacturer")

As far as I know to title/register and inspect a component car in the USA it is not supposed to be manufactured by anyone other than yourself unless you bought it off a fellow that built it for himself and then sold it. Of course this opens up a big gray area as to what "manufacture" means and if anyone really wanted to push the limits of the laws, we would probably find out that a lot of the businesses making complete rollers that only need engines and transmissions are not at all what the legislators were signing up for when approving these laws, and the bigger that part of the business gets, the more likely the rest of the hobby is to suffer in the long run.

Keep in mind this is all my opinion and I am not trying to write this in an explosive fashion.