KC-514 Engine 700 HP $10,600 !

[FUNFER2]

How could anyone go wrong with Keith's 514 cu. 700 HP, Dynode with spec. sheets for $10,600 ?

I was impressed with the Ford 514, 630 HP (I believe 630) crate motor for under $10,000 but now with Keith's,........... what a engine for the price !

The aluminum FE vs 514 for the HP and money ?

Alum. 482 FE- 580 HP $17,000

514- 700 HP $10,600

The FE is considerably more money and less HP.

I love the fact that I have at least the period correct FE in my cobra. Would this be a factor to you ?

Which way would you go ? I would appreciate any opinions.

Any of you have this engine ?

Thanks,
Kevin

[CobraEd]

Dyno knobs can be tweaked. Check with the guys who have done rwhp on these and then factor in 20 -25% difference. to determine the real crankshaft HP.

[RodKnock]

I think you find in previous threads about this subject that the majority will say FE. Also, 580HP for FE is certainly not anywhere near its maximum streetable HP. I have a fairly mild roller and got 601HP.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Dyno knobs can be tweaked. Check with the guys who have done rwhp on these and then factor in 20 -25% difference. to determine the real crankshaft HP.

Yes, dyno knobs can be tweaked, but I serouisly doubt KC is doing that...Why chance ruining a fine business and great reputation?????
Way back when, there was a similar thing with KC and Cracker, remember that episode?????
The engine KC rebuilt and dynoed went to a NASCAR shop in Atlanta, I think, for them to dyno to verify the numbers, and when they dynoed the motor that was shipped directly to them from KC's shop, they got a number that was TWO hp less than Keith's dyno number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't work for KC, don't have one of his motors, but did once buy some parts (crankshaft-rods-pistons) from him to build my own motor.........

Did you know he has his own line of Signature heads, has his own line of pistons, and his own line of camshafts that have been patened??????? Did you know in the past he has sold parts and pieces to Roush Racing, as in the NASCAR team owner Jack Roush????? His shop has comparable equipment to any top NASCAR shop in the country......he does as much research into camshaft/cylinder head combos as many NASCAR teams.....so why in the world would he need to "tweak" the knobs on his dyno??????

BTW: there are many local machine shops in my neck of the woods that are building 514's in the 700hp range,it's not that hard to do with all the aftermarket parts avaliable.........
Mud truck racing is the big rage around here for the last few years, there are many 460's with factory iron 428CJ heads that have to run a hydraulic cam, no rollers allowed and have to pull 12"s of vacum at 1000rpms that have dynoed in the 650hp range....add a good set of aluminum heads, hydraulic roller cam and another 54 cubic inches and I think you could easily get another 100 hp out of that combo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dyno shop/machine shop I use for my own dyno work has been building big block motors in this hp range and more for many years,all it takes is the right combo of parts and the knowledge of how to assemble them correctly........

Sorry for the rant, just had to get it off my chest...

David

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Yes, dyno knobs can be tweaked, but I serouisly doubt KC is doing that...Why chance ruining a fine business and great reputation?????
Way back when, there was a similar thing with KC and Cracker, remember that episode?????
The engine KC rebuilt and dynoed went to a NASCAR shop in Atlanta, I think, for them to dyno to verify the numbers, and when they dynoed the motor that was shipped directly to them from KC's shop, they got a number that was TWO hp less than Keith's dyno number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't work for KC, don't have one of his motors, but did once buy some parts (crankshaft-rods-pistons) from him to build my own motor.........

Did you know he has his own line of Signature heads, has his own line of pistons, and his own line of camshafts that have been patened??????? Did you know in the past he has sold parts and pieces to Roush Racing, as in the NASCAR team owner Jack Roush????? His shop has comparable equipment to any top NASCAR shop in the country......he does as much research into camshaft/cylinder head combos as many NASCAR teams.....so why in the world would he need to "tweak" the knobs on his dyno??????

BTW: there are many local machine shops in my neck of the woods that are building 514's in the 700hp range,it's not that hard to do with all the aftermarket parts avaliable.........
Mud truck racing is the big rage around here for the last few years, there are many 460's with factory iron 428CJ heads that have to run a hydraulic cam, no rollers allowed and have to pull 12"s of vacum at 1000rpms that have dynoed in the 650hp range....add a good set of aluminum heads, hydraulic roller cam and another 54 cubic inches and I think you could easily get another 100 hp out of that combo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The dyno shop/machine shop I use for my own dyno work has been building big block motors in this hp range and more for many years,all it takes is the right combo of parts and the knowledge of how to assemble them correctly........

Sorry for the rant, just had to get it off my chest...

David

Now all we need is the skill to drive them!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Now all we need is the skill to drive them!

dats right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[Rick Parker]

"Horsepower sells engines, torque wins races."

[427 S/O]

Or......Torque get's you there, horsepower keeps you there................

[greg schroeder]

700 engine HP sounds fun if you got the right set up to let the engine perform. I'm sure the engine builders have seen some of their engines to make good wheel power, but most to be pretty sucked down in power with exhaust and fuel delivery system limitations.

Trap seeds don't lie and change little with varying ET. Check out how much real power you have. You can correct values to sea level with this link if you want to compare apples to apples, much like corrected dyno numbers.
http://www.modulardepot.com/density.php

2800 lb race weight,
115 mph = 337 wheel HP
120 mph = 386 wheel HP
125 mph = 432 wheel HP
130 mph = 486 wheel HP
135 mph = 545 wheel HP

2550 lb race weight
115 mph = 307 wheel HP
120 mph = 348 wheel HP
125 mph = 394 wheel HP
130 mph = 443 wheel HP
135 mph = 496 wheel HP

[BossCER]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Mud truck racing is the big rage around here for the last few years, there are many 460's with factory iron 428CJ heads that have to run a hydraulic cam, no rollers allowed and have to pull 12"s of vacum at 1000rpms that have dynoed in the 650hp range....add a good set of aluminum heads, hydraulic roller cam and another 54 cubic inches and I think you could easily get another 100 hp out of that combo!!!!!!!!!!!!!


David

??
I've not heard of anyone doing this. Can you elaborate as to how these guys are put FE heads on a 385 series motor

[Ronbo]

Why compare a iron block to an aluminum block???

You'll need the extra HP to make up for the extra 200lbs your adding to your front end. Won't be able to do anything about the loss of handling.

My FE dynoed at 634HP... and runs on pump gas, weighs the same as a iron small block, and for what it's worth looks like the correct engine for the car.

To me it's worth the extra money.

Some feel the heavier engine won't be a big factor especially for a street car, however I strongly disagree. The 700HP is pretty useless on the street as opposed to the better handling.

[Cobra #42]

jhv48 You are definitely correct, I always amaze the amounts of money, time , and energy, people will spend on a Cobra. And everyone has to have 400+, or more HP. But they will no spend 10 cents to learn how to drive it. Driving A High Performance vehicle is a true joy in life, until you practice and work on your driving skills you are missing what a Cobra is all about. Sure their beautiful to look at and I truly enjoy the people I have met in my Cobra. But in my opinion, there is nothing any sweeter than turning hot laps at your local track.

So find a track and get some quality instruction.

db

[FUNFER2]

What hasn't been directly discussed, is the difference in money.
$6,400

Is it worth the extra money because it's a aluminum FE ?
Like I mentioned, having a Cobra correct engine is great, not only for the owner's bragging rights but also, most looker's of my cobra actually expect a 427 side oiler.

For instance- I was at a show next to a very nice, Superformance cobra. It had the Roush 347, a great motor but, not for me. I had some pick the (trailered) Superformance for the quality of paint. (I drive mine so I have chips) and mine for not only the looks of my engine but, that it's original to the cobra. I would say from the people I talked to, mine won 7 out of 10 times because of the engine. And yes, it felt great !

As light as our cars are, let's say for argument sake, 500 HP is overkill.
700 HP is crazy, unless it's a dedicated drag car but, some of us just like having that much power. Is it useful on the street, no. Traction for even 450HP can be difficult. But again, "more power" is fun. We race 360 winged sprint cars. 650 to 700 HP is normal, in a 1,500 lb car. The Outlaw class is now 900 to 950 in a 1,200 lb car. We can race all season with no mechanical break downs because of the HP we have. The 410 engines are very,......hard on the equipment. They can actually twist the frame so hard that it bends and can break. Guy's are always breaking rear end gears and pinions, drive shaft/torque tube's, axles, four bars and even wheels and ect,.....Because of this, we don't lease a 410 engine anymore for the "Knoxville Nationals". The power is just too hard on our parts & pockets.

My point- Even with the professional sprint drivers like the Woo, why run a engine 50-70k engine that tear's up parts and frames way more that our 360 class ? Because, more power is more fun if, you can handle it. As far as I'm concerned, the outlaws have a lot more power than needed. Even on a tacky track, they can burn up both rears (especially the left rear) in 10 laps. I can't believe how many tries they use in one race. lol wow.
Do they need that much power,......no, not really. Should they run basically the same motor we do and save on parts, engines, tires and money spent ect,.... hum,...? I guess if you have the $$$, go for it.
Power is addictive !!!

So anyway, when you consider the extra dollars for a cool aluminum FE
verses a non-period correct 514, what would you buy ?

I would love to buy the $17,000 FE, (man would I) but, there's a $6,400 difference.
$6,400 !!!

And, to a lot of us, money does matter. Just imagine what you could do with that money saved for something like, electronic Webber style fuel injection !

Gentlemen please, behave when responding.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I've not heard of anyone doing this. Can you elaborate as to how these guys are put FE heads on a 385 series motor

My mistake (typo), there are using 429 CJ heads or any pre 1973 429 DOVE head.......Used heads out of the junkyard are going for 1000 bucks a pair, just like they come off the motor!!!!!!!!!!!! I know, I've found and sold a couple of sets already.........

Rules state the have to run factory iron blocks or a replacement(Dart,etc.) block, any factory iron head, hydraulic cam only (no rollers or solids), any single carb intake and any single 4V carb.... 460/454/440 engines must run stock stroke crank and no more than .060 overbore.....must pull 12" of vacum at 1000rpms.........you'd be sirprised what there getting out of these motors...............some are turning them 7500rpms........

David

[Ronbo]

The question is why is it being discussed?

Why not discuss the price difference of a iron block FE to an iron 485?

Or the price difference of an aluminum FE and an aluminum 485?

Answer: there's not much difference (price wise)...

As far as aluminum vs. iron, well depends on wether you happen to like understeer.

[RodKnock]

Two Words: Resale Value. Just my personal opinion, of course, but I would not look at a Cobra with a 385 series in it.

If you want the FE, then buy the FE. Borrow the $6,400 because you'll want it later anyway.

[FUNFER2]

Ronbo- The reason for the discussion is what I've already stated.

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about a 385, 428, 429 or stock 460. Only, the Alum. FE vs Keith's 515. That's it.

What I'm looking for in this discussion, is the difference of price, power and if,.... you consider only putting a original to the Cobra, a FE.

So, with that said, let's please continue.

RodKnock- That's right, most that sell with the FE's do bring more money when selling. That's a issue, $6,400, it's not chump change. Is it worth spending that much for being a "FE" ?

If, these two engines were both the same price and HP/Torque of $10,600 , hell ya, go with the FE but, their not.

Thank you,

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

If you want the FE, then buy the FE. Borrow the $6,400 because you'll want it later anyway.

FUNFER2 - that pretty much sums it up (and personally, I'd rather have my 450HP FE than a different series engine having 50, 100, or even 200 HP more). BUT, don't put yourself in financial straits to get an FE; don't take food off the table, and don't scrimp on your kids' education. Economic times are tough right now, and over-extended folks are going under. I wouldn't even advise borrowing the money -- if you can't take it out of the bank without it hurting then it would probably be smarter to save your money and deal with it at a later time.

[mjmacqua]

Just a quick question or two:
The thread started off with KC 514 700HP $10K how could you go wrong...
It sounds impressive, but what about torque, compression ratio.

I would agree in this thread that Torque wins races, hp keeps you there (or however it was said), and from expreience HP helps sell cars/motors. But I would also agree that one of the first questins we all get is whats under the hood. Is it a real 427... IT depends on what you are going for.

I had my motor rebuilt last year. It ended as a 557 with about 650HP and a lot of trque. It also had a lot of compression, and a lot of heat. Which all of us with big blocks know about, especially worked ones. Needless to say, I no longer have a 557, it is a 514 with a mild Cam, it will be on the dyno shortly, I expect it to be about 1HP/cubic inch, with good torque. Very streetable. It all depends what you are looking for.

Just my 2 cents

[fostereast]

IMHO:

What I love about Cobra's is that because it's a Kit Car (Replica) it is each persons interpretation of their dream.

Where I think it gets challenging is that we all feel that we need to "not skimp" in the engine department and that pretty quickly reduces down to one thing; Horsepower. I also suspect that a lot of builds are overpowered to the point where the cockpit heat and noise and general drivability are not quite what the builder anticipated.

I think having a period correct looking engine is a huge plus, so an FE or 289 style engine is great, also focusing a lot of attention on the handling can only be a good thing.

Building a beast with too much HP or too much emphasis on top end performance can take away from the overall experience if your goal is to enjoy driving it in conditions other than racing.

For what it's worth, I suspect a lot of the FFR guys enjoy a lot more miles in their cars because it's still "crazy" fast, but the engine is quiet, reliable and not too hot.

When I build my Cobra, I'm going to try and take these things into consideration when specifying the FE engine I'll use, and try to end up with a car that the cockpit noise and heat and general drivability is bearable for daily driving conditions.