Backwords pin drive wheels

estabandando · #1 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 03:05 PM

I recently bought an ERA from a private seller. I've been impressed with the kit but realized recently that the pin drive hub adapters are installed on the wrong side of the car. All four spinners tighten towards the front of the car.

Can I just (on the two fronts) remove the entire rotor/hub assembly as one piece and move it to the other side of the car? From the ERA manual it seems that the pin drive hub should have loctite on the pins that connect it to the rotor and I don't feel comfortable applying heat to break the bond without causing damage (but maybe I'm misunderstanding the manual).

What's the procedure for getting the pin drive assembly off the rear of the car? All I see is a cotter pin holding the assembly together. I figure that can't be all that is holding it together.

RICK LAKE · #2 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 03:40 PM

Estaban Which rotors are on the car? 11" or 12". If the rotors are ribbed, they need to pull air through the rotors to help cool the surfaces. I have the Sierra setup on my car. You can wire tie the spinners to the wheels and check them with a little black mark on the spinner and the rim. If they stay tight after a couple of drives, I see no problem with leaving them the way they are unless the rotors are overheating. If the 2 marks move in different directions you will need to remove the assemblies and swap the parts from side to side. If you just want to swap sides, you need to check the bearing races for grooves in the mounting surfaces and the spindles for the same. Regrease the bearing and reassembly. Don't over tighen the spindle nut for the load on the wheel bearings. Use your hand and go snug as you can and then a little more to get to the next hole for the cotter pin. Make sure you split the pin and bend it back to hold. If the rear is the same problem you will have alot more work to do on this. You will need the manual to guide you through this. The wheel alignment may need to be checked after this repair to the car. Where are you? There maybe someone living close to you that can help. Rick L. In NJ.

estabandando · #3 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 03:58 PM

I'm in the panhandle of Florida. I've driven the car pretty extensively for a few days and was aware of the issue so I made some reference marks on the spinner. There was no movement with any of the drives and I feel fairly confident in leaving them that way. I've just read all the threads here on spinner direction. Most people seem to be adamant that they spinners must tighten towards the rear of the car. Frankly in my opinion there should be no relative movement between the wheel and the pin drive thread assembly assuming the wheel is seated properly on the pins. With that, the only forces that would act to loosen a spinner would be vibration and the inertia of a moving spinner. If a spinner isn't tightened to the point where its own inertia can loosen it, then I think you've got a problem regardless of which direction they tighten. As far as mitigating the threat from vibration, I just plan to tighten and check them prior to every drive and safety wire them.

I feel pretty good about it after all that, but I've seen the heated arguments from people with more experience on the issue than I saying that they must be installed to tighten towards the rear. I figured if it was an easy fix I would go through the trouble, but after hearing your description of the necessary work to move the pin drive assembly, I think I'll just be vigilant with double checking them, and take the chance as they are.

EDIT: I did talk to the previous owner and he had them installed improperly for the life of the car and never experienced any problems (without safety wire for about half of its life after he became satisfied that they weren't going to come loose).

Thanks for the reply.

patrickt · #4 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

If they stay tight after a couple of drives, I see no problem with leaving them the way they are unless the rotors are overheating.

Rick L. In NJ.

Or, he could always just substitute a little Loctite for the anti-seize. Red should do it... yeah, that's the ticket.

wtm442 · #5 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 06:08 PM

Safety wire will tell you when it is loose, but probably would break and there goes the wheel down the street. A backward rotation spinner is dangerous IMHO.

Red Locktite on the spinner ???????????? You might as well WELD them on.

jwd · #6 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 06:42 PM

This topic has been beaten to death on many forums.
Here are some quotes from John Hinckley (an engineer that worked for GM on the Corvette and Chrysler as the Viper plant manager) on a Corvette forum. Corvette never saftey wired their knock-offs.

"There is no relative movement between the wheel and the adapter, whether under acceleration or braking - that's what the drive pins are for (unless the drive pin holes in the wheel are "egged-out"). It really makes no difference at all which side of the car the RH or LH-threaded adapters are mounted on.

"It's amazing how much misinformation exists out there from folks who simply don't understand the design of the interface between the adapter and the wheel (including the fact that there are ten different ways to index the wheel on the adapter, and five of them will result in the wheel falling off).

The kinetic energy in the rotating spinner is insignificant compared to the clamping force generated in the tapered interface between the wheel and the spinner, and the "safety pins" are a band-aid that only existed in the later-generation reproduction adapters and spinners; original KO's didn't have them (and didn't need them if the wheels were properly installed).

Anybody remember when Mopars had RH-threaded lug nuts/studs on the driver's side and LH-threaded lug nuts/studs on the passenger side for umpteen years, and Chrysler engineers swore on their mothers' graves that if they were all RH threads the passenger side wheels would fall off and kill everyone? That theory faded away and they very quietly went to RH threads on both sides like every other manufacturer on the planet, and behold, the passenger side wheels didn't fall off. Imagine that."

patrickt · #7 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwd

Anybody remember when Mopars had RH-threaded lug nuts/studs on the driver's side and LH-threaded lug nuts/studs on the passenger side ... That theory faded away.."[/color]

Yes, they went to Red Loctite, if memory serves....

lovehamr · #8 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwd

(including the fact that there are ten different ways to index the wheel on the adapter, and five of them will result in the wheel falling off).

What? Now you have to enlighten us all.

Steve

jwd · #9 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovehamr

What? Now you have to enlighten us all.

Steve

On the Corvette knock-off adapters, you would bolt the adapters to the hub with lug nuts. That would leave 5 pins and 5 lug nuts for the wheel to index on. You have to make sure that the wheel was indexed on the pins, not the lug nuts.
A pic. of one is in my gallery.

Jim

lovehamr · #10 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 09:03 PM

Jim, does the Hurricane use plastic frog hubs?

Steve

jwd · #11 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Jim, does the Hurricane use plastic frog hubs?

Steve

?????? What is a plastic frog hub?

Naumoff · #12 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estabandando

I'm in the panhandle of Florida. I've driven the car pretty extensively for a few days and was aware of the issue so I made some reference marks on the spinner. There was no movement with any of the drives and I feel fairly confident in leaving them that way. I've just read all the threads here on spinner direction. Most people seem to be adamant that they spinners must tighten towards the rear of the car. Frankly in my opinion there should be no relative movement between the wheel and the pin drive thread assembly assuming the wheel is seated properly on the pins. With that, the only forces that would act to loosen a spinner would be vibration and the inertia of a moving spinner. If a spinner isn't tightened to the point where its own inertia can loosen it, then I think you've got a problem regardless of which direction they tighten. As far as mitigating the threat from vibration, I just plan to tighten and check them prior to every drive and safety wire them.

I feel pretty good about it after all that, but I've seen the heated arguments from people with more experience on the issue than I saying that they must be installed to tighten towards the rear. I figured if it was an easy fix I would go through the trouble, but after hearing your description of the necessary work to move the pin drive assembly, I think I'll just be vigilant with double checking them, and take the chance as they are.

EDIT: I did talk to the previous owner and he had them installed improperly for the life of the car and never experienced any problems (without safety wire for about half of its life after he became satisfied that they weren't going to come loose).

Thanks for the reply.

If you have Trigo or Vintage knock offs (five pin)then it is as easy as swaping just the adapters.

lovehamr · #13 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwd

?????? What is a plastic frog hub?

Sorry man, "plastic frog" is the term I use for vettes.

Your referance above spoke to vette hubs; that's why I asked if your Hurricane had those hubs.

Steve

jwd · #14 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Sorry man, "plastic frog" is the term I use for vettes.

Your referance above spoke to vette hubs; that's why I asked if your Hurricane had those hubs.

Steve

Okay, now I understand. So you have a Ford powered "plastic frog"

. No, The Hurricane doesn't use those hubs. I'm using Vintage Wheels knock-offs. I statements refer to knock-offs in general. The arguement of which side goes where has been going on forever but it has been proven to not make any difference. If installed correctly, there should be no problems with them coming off. No car manufacturer ever safety wired them and they still stayed on.

Jim

strictlypersonl · #15 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estabandando

I recently bought an ERA...
What's the procedure for getting the pin drive assembly off the rear of the car? All I see is a cotter pin holding the assembly together. I figure that can't be all that is holding it together.

I think that the easiest way to fix the rear is to switch the whole half-shaft/hub carrier assembly from one side to the other. You might have to adjust the camber afterward.

If you have the Sierra brakes and decide to switch the front hubs from side to side, I recommend that you have the rotors refaced after they have been switched to the opposite hub/hat. That might not be necessary though, as they may be currently pointing the the correct direction for the opposite side. The spiral vanes are supposed to be pointing to the rear (on the top).

estabandando · #16 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

If you have Trigo or Vintage knock offs (five pin)then it is as easy as swaping just the adapters.

The wheels and spinners are Halibrands. If wheel/spinner sets come with all the necessary adapter hardware then I would assume the pin drive assembly is the same, but I'd have to look to be sure.

The rear end is a Jag setup. I think I'll just be extra careful with the configuration as it is.

Power Surge · #17 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estabandando

The wheels and spinners are Halibrands. If wheel/spinner sets come with all the necessary adapter hardware then I would assume the pin drive assembly is the same, but I'd have to look to be sure.

The rear end is a Jag setup. I think I'll just be extra careful with the configuration as it is.

It's really not an issue. As previously mentioned, there is no rotating force being transferred to the knock off from the wheel. The pins hoold the wheel in place in relationship to the hub. The only possible way the rotation of the wheel could loosen the knock off, is if all 6 (or 5) of your wheel pins broke, but then you'd have other issues to worry about as well.

Naumoff · #18 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estabandando

I recently bought an ERA from a private seller. I've been impressed with the kit but realized recently that the pin drive hub adapters are installed on the wrong side of the car. All four spinners tighten towards the front of the car.

Can I just (on the two fronts) remove the entire rotor/hub assembly as one piece and move it to the other side of the car? From the ERA manual it seems that the pin drive hub should have loctite on the pins that connect it to the rotor and I don't feel comfortable applying heat to break the bond without causing damage (but maybe I'm misunderstanding the manual).

What's the procedure for getting the pin drive assembly off the rear of the car? All I see is a cotter pin holding the assembly together. I figure that can't be all that is holding it together.

From your description it sounds like it is a bolted on adapter.
Can you post some pictures of them. As others have stated it doesn't matter but I would want my spinners set to what the majority of cars are. Just for continuity. Might have a buddy thinking he's doing you a favor with a couple of taps on your spinners not knowing he is loosening your wheels up.

Am I being too anal?