Autoweek Magazine

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ron61:
...Holman & Moody, Alan Mann and the like didn't work to help Shelby. They were competing teams. Holman & Moody nor Alan Mann helped SAI. With the talent SAI had at the time they didn't need Holman & Moody or Alan Mann. If they did then Mr. Holman needs to tell us specifically what Holman & Moody did to help SAI and Shelby acheive all their accomplishments. They certainly didn't help SAI win the World Manufacturers Title, they certainly didn't help develope the Daytona Coupe Cobra...

From Lee Holman

"Mr., Shelby seems also to have forgotten that it was Alan Mann Racing that raced the Cobra Coupes in Europe in 1965 with myself as part of the team that year, and that it was the performance of Alan Mann Racing that won the championship for the Ford Cobras that year."

I believe Pete Brock's book The Daytona Coupe agrees with Lee. Pete has told me that CS was working on the GT40 and did not have time to work on the Cobras. Hence Alan Mann ran the Cobras in 1965.

[Got the Bug]

Evan - I've got to admit, half the time it's hard to tell where your posts start and your signature ends. And your "Cobra Make" description is long enough to choke a horse.

[What'saCobra?]

Correct. Mann ran the team and many contemporaries consider that it was really much of an AC championship win, although FIA paperwork obfuscate that point somewhat.

Shel' was told by FORD to stop playing with that old Cobra nit-sh.. and they would not pay CS for any of that work. The focus was the GT40 or else, rather well documented in most references and by most referees, including Shelby's own books.

Plenty of folks here have frequently commented on Shelby's remarkable skills both as a driver and promoter. Not noticing those comments or devaluing them to non-existence isn't any more fair than harping on Shel's weaknesses. Of course, Shelby continues to poke nice folks in the eye every few months, so no wonder he's not popular with everyone all the time.

CC is as fair and balanced as the only fair and balanced cable network, FOX. They are both an open and welcoming forum with great depth and breadth. But, somehow i fear that comparison will not play well with a star-struck/stuck-on-stupid progressive lawyer that unfortunately cannot choose to afford an original car but insists on investing in equivalancies and superlatives regarding the merits and importance of personal property and preferences.

We have the great freedom to prefer any team we wish, despite the probabilities. Every 100 years, even the Chicago Cubs can win the penant. We are not called the human RACE for no reason, i suppose.

Nor is it pleasing to have our postings characterized as trivial and sonehow unworthy, particularly when many here have a nicely balanced perspective of the Master's contributions to our sport's history.

It is indeed unfortunate that the Master's current machinations are not consistent with the rather glossy and not in-frequently misleading re-statements of his original contributions. It is the Master's current actions and characterizations that poke sticks in our eyes and remind us of past grievances, gross slander and self-aggandizements forgiven to what avail?

Like most human heros, up close and personal inspection isn't recommended if we wish to retain blissful faith and a simple life. Remember though that Shel' has frequently benefited from the polarization of his various antagonists and weakens their attacks thereby.

But, we all learn and this Club lesson will indeed be a bitter pill, despite any hoped for advantage. i cannot see much for him to gain, rather than the risibly better alternative solutions ignored to date.

Though we clearly love the car, most of us love the man's history, if not always the man. We admire his stamina and know it comes from still being a champion driver way down inside his loafers and above all things.

i suspect that Shelby still thinks that every single inch of "track" is of supreme importance and that the price of "success" is always a variable for which he is more willing to pay than most of us folk. His self-image may be a driving demon we monkey-less plebs cannot comprehend.

His acolytes might suffer similarly.

[REAL 1]

Whatsacobra: You are a master pontificator who as mastered stringing thousands of .10 cent words togethter in what could be said on less then two sentences. You apparently aren't a Shakespear fan.

You still haven't referenced any authoritative references, other then yourself, that Mann or Holman was responsible for the SAI's accomplishments I set forth above. Just more pontificating smoke. You apparently believe you know more than the history books and even know what I can or cannot afford and my political leanings. Amazing!

Please cite us published references that Holman was responsible or credited for SAI accomplishments I outlined above. What specifically did Holman do. Did he provide drivers? Did he provide car set up. Please give us the specifics. Please explain. I understand that Mann took over the Cobras in europe but what about the States. Shelby also supplied drivers, Alan Grant and Bob Bondurant who Mann held back and instructed to finish behind British drivers. Shelby's cars won with the help of his drivers. Mann deserves credit too. But it was Shelby that developed the car through inception and provided to tools to get it done.

Plesae enlighten us. I will be glad to admit I was wrong if you and cite the authority. Not a problem. Seriously.

You may think I'm stuck on stupid. I think your stuck on...well...nevermind.....

You find it fair and balanced here. Maybe you should stop pontificating and do more reading here.

Tom: I haven't read Brock's book, however, no other book I have read indicates Holman deserve credit for Shelby's accomplishments I set forth above. As to Mann, see above.

[Trevor Legate]

Such fun and jollity! (BTW, there's an 'e' on the end of Shakespeare, otherwise it becomes Shakes-pear. I know you appreciate accuracy...)

I did visit Lee Holman and have sat in his office discussing this matter and came to the conclusion that the truth lies someplace in the middle ground - as always! There is 'history' betwixt the two companies and that's hardly suprising when you imagine sitting in John Holmans office as he took the call from his good friend Jacques Passino, saying that the upstart Shelby has walked off with a sizeable chunk of the racing budget that was (supposedly) heading south. Pi$$ed or what? It was also clear that the Cobra entered by H&M - at Passinos 'request' - at the Bahamas Speed Week was not properly prepared since H&M knew little or nothing about such cars and that kinda racing. A bit like throwing Shelby into the deep end in a NASCAR race! The Shelby cars ran off and the H&M Cobra was 34th-ish.

As for Le Mans, if you ask the drivers - Gurney, Gardner etc - they will tell you that the main competition was between the three Ford teams - and no information passed between them, so they were racing each other plus Ferrari. But H&M had little experience of the European circuits and insisted on using their own drivers who ahd often never seen a circuit like Le Mans (it was Frank Gardner who had to show AJ Foyt the way round...!) Lee Holman was THERE, even though he was 16 and admits his role was a gofer - but he was there, not in an office in the USA. He recalls that it was the H&M mechanics who prevented the souvenir hunters from emptying the GT40 pits when all the Shelby hot-rodders ran off to celebrate, leaving all their tools and equipment lying around - that's called experience (or maybe a mistrust of the French)

Just to clarify the Alan Mann/American driver situation - he was a young guy with a promising career in front of him. He had been promised a role in the GT40 game if he won the GT championship for Shelby. To do that, his job was to win at the slowest possible speed and that's what he did. This saved the cars, the engines and prevented having to keep shipping new parts in. Jack Sears and Sir John Whitmore understood this and agreed to honor this demand, even though it was beyond boring at many of the races, but that's was their job!! Other drivers had their own agenda and took a different view. Sears ran slowly for 18 hours at Le Mans with a sick engine - he could have blown it up at any time and gone home, but he flogged it around to be the only Cobra to finish and score points. Even Alan Mann admitted he not have been so honest.

and so on and so forth....all water under the bridge.

[What'saCobra?]

And it was such a fine bridge at that.

President Gurney drove and won the 'Bridge' in 1963 (CSX 2137):

[Historybuff]

When I was researching original Cobra racing back in the Sixties, I ran across an entry of a Cobra prepared by Holman & Moody back around 1962 and driven by Augie Pabst. I called up Augie and he told me that he had been thinking of buying a Cobra.

On their website Holman & Moody say the Pabst car was one of three Cobras entered in the Nassau Speed Weeks." I think the other two were prepared by Shelby.
At any rate the Pabst car did not win but I think if his would have beat the Shelby cars by a wide margin that Ford, knowing H & M a lot more than they knew Shelby would have given the nod to H & M to build the Cobras.

But in the end maybe they knew that Shelby would make a better spokesman in the ads (and fdon't forget he was even in ads for the Fairlane and in ads selling "Cobra parts") than either Holman or Moody and that's part of what selling cars is all about--the showmanship. And they were right, as proven by the fact that CS is on their payroll marketing cars again some 46 years down the road....

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Historybuff

.... I think if his would have beat the Shelby cars by a wide margin that Ford, knowing H & M a lot more than they knew Shelby would have given the nod to H & M to build the Cobras.

Really? ...you really think that? With one car's results?

Nassau was in December. By December 1962, SAI had processed 61 cars and was well on their way to a steady run-rate of production.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Tom Kirkham

From Lee Holman

"Mr., Shelby seems also to have forgotten that it was Alan Mann Racing that raced the Cobra Coupes in Europe in 1965 with myself as part of the team that year, and that it was the performance of Alan Mann Racing that won the championship for the Ford Cobras that year."

I believe Pete Brock's book The Daytona Coupe agrees with Lee. Pete has told me that CS was working on the GT40 and did not have time to work on the Cobras. Hence Alan Mann ran the Cobras in 1965.

If you don't have Peter's book, "The Cobra-Ferrari Wars" by Michael Shoen chapter #34 'One Last Time' will add insight into the 1965 European season and Alan Mann's involvement.
While you're reading you might as well read chapters 35, 36, 37, & 38.

[Excaliber]

When I first bought that book and cracked it open I was trapped! I couldn't move for the next two hours as I devoured only a part of the terrific insights and legendary history. What a great read.

[franklin]

Hey Traveller,
Better yet have him sign your armpit!

[DTurnbull]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Evan...now you are just crapping up the thread for the sport of it.

Go home, will ya.

I agree..


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[Tom Kirkham]

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants"

Sir Isaac Newton

[HI Cobra]

"Tis the empty barrel that makes the most noise."

Benjamin Franklin

[REAL 1]

Trevor: Good post. Sorry about botching ol' Williams name.

Listen gentlemen, while others can claim a hand here and there in the Shelby race efforts the major and I mean MAJOR credit goes to SAI and all their talented personnel in making the Cobra a world champion and legend. The facts don't support any other conclusion. Those that argue otherwise are either trying to re write history or are ignorant of it.

Understand, I am not "star struck" with Shelby contrary to the statements of the pontificating poster. However, I don't care for those who wish to re write history merely because they may not car for the man for whatever reason. History is history and don't re write it because you don't like it. Shelby not perfect but don't dilute his accomplishments for you own selfish reasons.

And while the Shelby bashers are offering little clever dittys of wit which you guys clearly directed at me let me direct one in your direction. Try this one on.

"The truth hurts"

Evan aka REAL 1

[4pipes]

"The steam that blows the whistle, is not turning the wheels".

[4pipes]

This one is probably more appropriate:

"Don't sh*t the sh*tter, he's got a turd in every pocket".

[xlr8or]

Evan,
if people didn't bash Shelby, you wouldn't have a reason to post here.......

Hmmmmm there's an idea.. Naw it would never work.

[REAL 1]

Or how about "In the land of the blind the one eye'd man is king"

[A-Snake]

For some reason the words 'blind' and 'king' reminded me of a children's fairy tale called "The Emperor's New Clothes"

"An emperor who cares too much about clothes hires two swindlers who promise him the finest suit of clothes from the most beautiful cloth. This cloth, they tell him, is invisible to anyone who was either stupid or unfit for his position. The Emperor cannot see the (non-existent) cloth, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing stupid; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they dress him in mime. The Emperor then goes on a procession through the capital show off his new "clothes". During the course of the procession, a small child cries out, "But he has nothing on!" The crowd realizes the child is telling the truth. The Emperor, however, holds his head high and continues the procession."

It doesn't have anything to do with this thread, just a cute story.