Autoweek Magazine

[Historybuff]

Looking back, I regret Miles' wasn't given the chance to do a "triple crown" by winning LeMans. But after reading lots of books and talking to some team members, I realized that, if you look at an endurance race from a sponsor's viewpoint, the sponsor being Ford, the last thing you want is your own team members racing against each other, and breaking their cars in the process when, if they would have just cruised along, they could have won your brand the race. Miles was well known for wanting to race even other Shelby team members (back when he was racing Cobras) and more than once Shelby had to stand on a pit wall waving a hammer to get him to slow down and to quit inciting other S-A drivers to go faster than they needed to in order to sew up the race. Up in the Ford hospitality suite, in June, 66, the brass wanted a Ford GT to finish first and not see them break right and left because one team member or another was willing to break team discipline in order to be first in the winner's circle. So, in sum, the sponsor is the one whio writes the checks, and governs the strategy and thus calls the shots.If a racer doesn't want to work under team rules, he could always start his own team....

It is a little like combat--you haul in only so much ammo, and unless you can have fire discipline in the ranks, you are going to be in a heap of trouble if your boys expended their ammo early and it's too late to be resupplied.

[What'saCobra?]

Well and true, Buff.

Then again, looking at it from Miles' point of view, perhaps he well knew Henry Duce didn't want a Brit up front winning leMans, perhaps even foolishly more important than winning the race. i don't think that attitude would set well with Miles at all. Remember he built most of his own specials with which he had been so successful before meeting Shelby. He could build, drive and fix.

HII was definitely an odd duck, particularly when he (they) already owned FORD GB, a rather nice outfit at that. Yet, many of the books mention his strong wish to have a Yankee up front. Must be something strange in the water at Gross Point.

Funny thing, that Yankee stuff. Darn few of the FORD team were real Yankees in 1965!

1965 line-up:
AC Cars Jack Sears (GB) & Dr.Dick Thompson (DC) 4.7L Daytona 8th
SAI Jerry Grant (CA) & Dan Gurney (CA) 4.7L Daytona DNF
SAI Bob Johnson (CA) & Tom Payne (MI) 4.7L Daytona DNF
Filipinetti (SW) Peter Harper(GB) & Peter Stucliff (GB) 4.7L Daytona DNF
FORD (FR) Jo Schlesser (FR) & Allen Grant (CA) 4.7L Daytona DNF
SAI Phil Hill (CA) & Chris Amon (NZ) 7.0L GT40 MKII DNF
FAV (Mann) John Whitmore (GB) & Innes Ireland (GB) 4.7L GT40 MKI DNF
Filip/SAI Herbert Muller (SW) & Ronnie Bucknum (CA) 5.3L GT40 MKI DNF
Walker/SAI Bob Bondurant (CA) & Umberto Maglioli (IT) 4.7L GT40 MKI DNF

i can't seem to remember exactly if Bob Johnson was from CA or PA. But, on that list for sure the only almost Yank was Dr. Dick, just about the best Corvette pilot i ever watched. He was a dentist and a fine driver. No early sixties Ferrari SWB driver was safe if Dr. Dick was driving his 327 Corvette. As soon as the Cobras appeared successful, he switched drives, but he always loved his 327. 'Guess Thompson was Yankee, sort of.

Apropos, i would note that ONLY the AC car finished the race for FORD. Mann et al made the chicken farmer look pretty sad. Just look at that talent driving for FORD. It would be fair to say they were the best of the best.

Dr. Dick and Gentleman Jack were tres cool, you can be sure. Neither were known for breaking bits, which was necessary for LM.

AC brought home chicken for the 1965 LM pot.

NOT Shelby. You can imagine the heat on the Master's buttinski.

[REAL 1]

Funny, some history books document that Mann (a Brit) didn't want the American drivers sent by SAI to europe winning or finishing ahead of the Englishmen in Europe during 1965 when Mann helped out in europe.

Looks like Henry II's partiality to wanting lhis own countrymen to finish ahead of others wasn't confined to Henry II. Hmmmm.

In the end, while there were some less then stellar finishes for the Shelby American drivers in 1965 fact is in the end, overall they won the World Manufacturer's Title and fact is Shelby and SAI correctly and rightfully get the headline billing at the end of the Cobra story as the legend in the "Cobra" saga. Brits get second billing with AC ending up a footnote in automotive history.

Oops. What now.

Warning! This factual history subject to being changed here by CC anti Shelby revisionist history activists.

[computerworks]

Cite your sources, barrister. :-)

"...some history books..." doesn't cut it.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Warning! This factual history subject to being changed here by CC anti Shelby revisionist history activists.

No one is citing any posts in this forum in order to change the history books. None will be changed. Maybe if someone like Holman writes a book, but history won't change in my opinion.

I also think you overestimate or overplay the "Shelby hatred" angle.

[REAL 1]

Sorry Rodknock: You've only been here for 879 posts.

Come back and talk to me after you've been around here as long as I've been and seen what I seen over the years.

Ron: Fair enough, posting from the office couldn't remember off top of my head. No Shelby books here. No problem. Will get you the references tonight when home.

[xlr8or]

Sorry Rodney but apparently some people equate post count with knowledge.

By that standard Ernie should be doing quantum physics and string theory in his head.

[Excaliber]

Yup, i are a pretty smart fellow and love to play with string...

[Madmiles442]

[REAL 1]

Xl8or: Once again you are off the mark. Post count does not equate with knowledge. Your repetitive proof.

Post count does equate, however, with experience of whats been said here by and large and the majority sentiment that has come through loud and clear over the years by the "body politic" of CC concerning Shelby. Not all here mind you but the majority of posters over the years.

The recent thread ridiculing the man over his new deodorant venture is proof in point. Why ridicule him for it. None of you have tried a business venture or tried to market an idea? Last I checked this is a capitalist society and those with the moxy and creative effort and capital to make it work are entitled to profit from their success or lose from their failures, at least until Barbra Boxer, Nancy Pelosi and the far left push us to socialism, their ultimate goal. If you knew by way of a Crystal ball that Pit Stop deodorant would be a wild success and it was your idea I'm sure none of you would give it a go. Nah. :LOL Why don't you ridicule Paul Newman for his salad dressings or other celebritys for the products they put their name to. Theres plenty of them. While your at it, lets not stop there, those of you in business marketing a products or service, please post the products or service you market and your business ideas so we can ridicule you and knock you for trying to make money off it or pursuing your business idea. Seems fair to me. No? Oh, sorry, I forgot. This is CC. Ridicule only flows one way. Sorry. LOL.

I am neither defending Shelby or looking to knock him. Just defending the facts.

None of the facts I've stated above have been refuted by anyone citing authorative text as opposed to CC revisionist history mob mentality. Mann helped out in Europe with 2 to 3 Daytona Coupes. Shelby American still fielded its own team at LeMans and with their second in class win together with their wins in the States sealed the World Manufacturers Title in 1965. No where in some of the texts I looked at did I see any reference to Holman & Moody "assisting" SAI in 1965 or 1966 or anywhere or anytime else. Feel free to enlighten me with facts and references. Again in 1965 and 1966 H&M was actually competing with SAI for Ford $$$$. My take of Lee Holman's statement is that there is apparently no love loss between SAI and H&M and as far as I understand there never was any love loss, that it was inaccurate and designed to diminish SAI and Shelby's accomplishments in the Cobra era and to seek credit place more than deserved where it really wasn't due at least based on my readings. Again, if I'm wrong, I be happy to admit it. Just give me the authorative published references and what they say. I'll take a look.

Oh, and some of my references for my statements and position on this thread Shelby, The Man. The Cars. The legend. by Wallace A Wyss. ; Carroll Shelby's Racing Cobra by Dave Friedman and John Christy; Cobra, The Real Thing by some guy named Trevor Legate.

Oinie: You are a genius. Don't let them tell you otherwise. LOL

[Juggernaut]

Real 1,

It's now July 22nd., as I posted back on the 17th, man, you REALLY need to relax & just let it go already.

Have a good night.

[RodKnock]

Evan, I've been on this Forum for a long time, whether as a guest lurker, member lurker or just searching for information. I've seen posts/threads dating back to this site's inception. Nonetheless, it's not clear to me why I would need to prove my opinion.

You find ridicule and hatred for CS on this site, and there may be some. This is your perception of reality. My perception of reality is different. Please don't challenge my perception based on a useless statistic as post count.

I also know lawyers very well and they all like to argue, so this may be your motivation. I don't know. In any case, I'm/we're all just spitballin' here (from "A Few Good Men").

[xlr8or]

So Rodney how's that Kirkham? Getting some miles on it yet?

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I also know lawyers very well and they all like to argue, so this may be your motivation. I don't know. In any case, I'm/we're all just spitballin' here (from "A Few Good Men").

Motivation? We don't need no stinkin motivation to argue!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Motivation? We don't need no stinkin motivation to argue!

Yeah, what he said.

However, I do like that little saying "We're all just spitballin from here".

Fair enough.

FYI Rodknock: I've been around here since well..about 2001 or so. My post count is actually at least double since I was operating under a different user name years ago whatever that was and lost my previous post count. I don't really care about post counts. I changed user names to protect the innocent. I've seen ALOT here in the way of CS bashing over the years. ALOT.

[CobraEd]

This quote comes to mind:


Who is this that darkeneth my counsel with words without knowledge


God talking to Job


.

[Bugman]

Between this topic and the can for sale on eBay there are currently 7 pages of posts dedicated to deodorant! Man this place is the "pits"

Oh what did I start???

[khansmith]

When I started lurking/reading/posting here, I would say I didn't notice that much grief for Shelby relative to what I see now. I did see a tipping point with the SAAC drama started to unfold. Even with just that limited perspective in regards to my membership to this site, I didn't see an inflammatory intent with the deodorant post; just fascinating history that I am happy to know about a very savvy and ballsy entrepreneur.

Anyway, I have to say that I have learned more in this post about the racing history that surrounded CS (As I have been solely focused on his achievements) than I would have expected from a deodorant topic. Now I know there are some other great racing icons to learn about during the cobra period that deserve my attention.

I am constantly impressed with the information/history that the members possess. Thanks!

[REAL 1]

Gee Ed: I like the quote. Kinda brings you to mind though.

Biblically, I don't think God was speaking of lawyers in the statement to Jobe but his counsel in general.

Anyway, still reminds me of you.

All I do is point out what the history books say. Its not what I say.

Cheers.

[Excaliber]

ANY celebrity that at some point in his career was a spokesperson for "Pit Stop" would be taking some ribbing over it. In this case it just happens to be Shelby, I see ZERO connection between the product and Shelby bashing in that regard. It's just plain funny.

George Foreman for "Pit Stop", STILL funny!