H2O to power your Cobra True or False

[vettestr]

The hydrogen and 02 mixture or browns gas I am using is in addition to the gas because of the byproduct of water. The engine mods mentioned earlier are to deal with the contamination, corrosion and rusting if used in higher amounts. The addition to gas is small enough not to be an issue. This is also very low pressure so again not a big deal and no storage issues. Gas can easily be extracted with 20 amps at 3 volts. Voltage is dropped to 3 to 4 volts to reduce amperage draw total and easier to work with too.

427 s/0 is talking about a whole different deal or amount of H20 because of pressure, storage and delivery issues.

[CobraDan]

Yes I believe the auto industry could walk around something like HHO. Why is Chevy pushing E85 autos and there are only 2 stations selling E85 in the state of Florida. By 2010 the long awaited Volt electric car from Chevy will be on the market and that one stumbling block a battery is still no where to be found that will give this car some longevity. Chevy is claiming 30 cars in their fleet that get 30 miles to the gallon, since when is 30 a great figure. Next year they are coming out with a car that will get 45 miles to the gallon but they have never made any money on small cars so most of their present fleet and where the money has been is with SUV and Truck sales.

[GlynMeek]

Originally Posted by speed220mph

How do you spell Hindeburg?

HindeNburg!!!!!!

LOL

[CobraDan]

Well, only Ron and Jeff are experimenting with HHO to increases gas mileage. I saw a movie with an 8oz container of gas and the fuel line put into this container and then the truck was driven at idle until the gas was gone and the stop watch indicated it ran 2 minutes. The container was then re-filled with another 8oz of gas but this time they added the line from the HHO generator and started the truck to see if they could extend the run time before the gas was consumed, the time was doubled at around 4 minutes. Don’t hold me to the exact times but was this just trickery or could we get Ron or Jeff to perform this same experiment to our satisfaction. Yes I’m just as skeptical as those that indicated it as all BS. One HHO seller of his generator uses only water; others add vinegar, or baking soda to the water. One claims his generator works as the others do not, of course this type of stuff is going to run rampant when gas is running above $4.00 a gallon. We have all had plenty of time since the seventies when the oil embargos created shortages and long lines at the pumps but because gas remained cheap nothing much was done as most are still driving on fossil fuels.

[Ron61]

Dan,

It is my cousin who is doing the experimenting with the different types. He is a mechanic, engineer, and knows far more than I do about this type of stuff. Once he gets his figured out like he wants it and has time to test it on some of his different vehicles, then he is going to let me know if it works or not. He is also making all of his own stuff out of stainless and some other components that I don't even know what are, but said it was not costing him much as he does all the work and that way he can try different things. If it does help his mileage, then I will have him build one and send it to me. He is going to mount his inside the engine compartment on the fender wall to start with and use switched voltage with a battery tender to get it started in the morning. I don't understand all he was telling me so won't even attempt to explain it here, but once I hear from him and he has had time to sort it out, I will post what he found out for all to read.

Ron

[vettestr]

Dan,
I use the baking soda to increase conductivity of the distilled water it uses. Tap water only produces browns gas but also gets a murky brown color with foam ta boot pretty quick, and the soda increases gas production with the same volt/amperage as without soda. I also use stainless and 316 works better than 304.

I am not trying to convert anybodies beliefs, sell anything or even chance an argument getting serious. Anybody is welcome to check it out themselves.

[CobraDan]

Well, since we can separate H2O water back into its 2 components oxygen and hydrogen from an HHO generator which becomes HHO gas, but also know when it condenses and goes back to water we have rust and engine corrosion, then why have they not gone one step further and divided and separated the oxygen and hydrogen to put straight hydrogen into the combustion chamber? Please don’t tell me with today’s technology we would need a electrical power plant to produce enough hydrogen to run the car a mile down the rode, its time to start looking at new technology as I would love to be the first one to tell OPEC where to put their oil.

[vettestr]

This theory does work at a very basic and simple level. Browns gas added to gasoline in smaller low pressure amounts is not that difficult to due and control BUT IT DOES require some work and some mods. These mods allow you to remove a little gas from the delivery system (injection fuel map) so the browns gas can replace what you removed. My experience is 25% up to maybe 35% is very realistic with higher percentages a bit over my head or maybe only available in very few scenarios.

Browns gas has some cool attributes like quenching the fuel charge, reducing operating temps and adding a small amount of extra power. The extra power is small and about the difference of turning your cars AC on and off.... small but noticeable. This is a very low pressure system without storage potential or difficult control systems. As a basic system there are also no explosion or real fire hazards either and an on/off toggle switch returns everything to factory specs.

Other systems or those running high percentages of hydrogen are high pressure systems much like propane. High pressure delivery is a whole different ballgame and way more than I want to mess with. Storage, generation, delivery and explosion potential are just a few hurdles to overcome with high pressure systems. You can run on 100 % Hydrogen but not with jars and rubber tubing and a few electronics and no way a 100 buck install. Plus it makes water and engines don't like water in the crankcase etc.

A low pressure home built system once you know what and where to get the items needed are about 100 bucks for just the generator but it took 5 times that to get the list and experience together. Then you need to modify your cars ECM so you can start to remove a portion of the fuel mapping. This includes 40 bucks in parts for tweaking the MAP sensor output. You also need a way to remove sense voltage from 02 sensor on final sensor as it will read 15% high and ECM will throw codes and remove timing and a lot of bad stuff, another 70 bucks. Now ya need all the install and tweaking time and a bunch of Patience. In the end you can get an easy 20 percent fuel savings and the next 5 to 10 percent is relative to your Patience and time invested.

[CobraV8]

Originally Posted by http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=01101010

use electricity from your car's battery to separate water into a gas called HHO (2 Hydrogen + 1 Oxygen).

So electricity from the alternator driven by the engine is used in order to split up water into oxygen and hydrogen, then the hydrogen fuels the engine.

And despite the losses of this process, there will be more energy created by the gas than what was used to drive the alternator (otherwise there wouldn't be any mileage improvement).

> perpetual motion

[Bob In Ct]

So it's now clear to me, 2 pound chickens can lay 3 pound eggs. To think this is the place I come to to get quality information. Does anyone out there want to buy some land in Florida, a corner lot perhaps?

Bob

[CobraDan]

I don’t know where you see a perpetual motion machine when you get say two minutes run time with gas only and then add additional fuel as HHO and you increase your time or mileage a few percentage points, and talking about discussing dribble and getting quality information at club cobra, why do we have to wade through day after day who has the best cobra.

[vettestr]

CobraV8, YES that is what I am saying, from the start I have identified the max amp draw to be around 20 amps!! 20 amps is less than your AC compressor clutch and blower motor consume in your daily driver but it gets cooler inside.

Bob, I bet you separated oxygen from water in a high school lab just like me and tons of other kids and that was with a battery, plates and a little wire. This is the same fundamentals. I read your post #12 and do not understand why you feel so much energy is needed to separate 02 and hydrogen from water. It takes less than 20 amps to make the jar bubble pretty well.Here is a link to a kids science project to do the same. http://www.instructables.com/id/Sepa...er-Through-El/ I am not talking about a pressure system! It will create enough volume to displace the atmosphere in the tubing so the manifold vac can pull it into the engine. Under no or very low manifold vac the gas is placed at the TB inlet where there is flow to pull it into engine.

I do not choose to argue with anybody. I will be happy to discuss back and forth as time allows during the day but please keep it factual without personal jabs.

[strictlypersonl]

Originally Posted by vettestr

CobraV8, YES that is what I am saying, from the start I have identified the max amp draw to be around 20 amps!! 20 amps is less than your AC compressor clutch and blower motor consume in your daily driver but it gets cooler inside.

Bob, I bet you separated oxygen from water in a high school lab just like me and tons of other kids and that was with a battery, plates and a little wire. ...

Actually, I majored in Chemistry at RPI (getting A's) for 2 semesters before I switched to Physics.

There is only one way for this process to increase efficiency, and that is if it allows more timing advance by inhibiting detonation. Hydrogen has an octane rating of 130 but the volume you're introducing is so small that I doubt that it can have much effect. You would probably get a better result with pure water injection.

My original post's estimate of the poor efficiency of dissociating water stands. This a a sucker's bet.

[427 S/O]

Well, obvious it won't be solved here but, someone or some group will, using some sort of new technology or whatever?. the fact that it's there, and it can be pulled out is good enough for me. I still like the idea of using PV cells to generate power and separate with that power.

[CobraDan]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/plasmatron.html

[olddog]

Having worked in process control for nearly 30 years, I have learned that, often times, operators observe something and totally misunderstand what was the cause, what was the affect, and what just happened to be a coincidence. Many times I have been told a story that is not possible. Nevertheless if one is wise enough to listen and ask the right questions, the mystery can be solved with some new learning’s. I have seen operators make something work by observations and trial, yet their theory of why it works is totally wrong.

I have also seen some people on some other forums, talking about this technology, with good solid people claiming some success. These are people who I trust to be knowledgeable and not prone to telling tall tales. Now from an educated position, it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen from the water than you will get from burning the hydrogen. I suspect there is something going on here that does improve the MPG, but it is not from burning the hydrogen alone. Just because the theory of why it works is all wrong doesn’t mean that it is not working. Just that the true nature of why it works is not understood.

I am suspecting a few possibilities. One is that the baking soda at some point in this process is causing a chemical reaction that is providing more energy. The other suspicion is that at some point steam is coming into play. It is quite possible that there are multiple things going on.

Perhaps a snake oil salesman has unwittingly got people onto a great discovery that is just around the corner.

[olddog]

A fellow by the name of Crower is working on a 6 stroke diesel.
1) intalke
2) compression
3) power (diesel injection)
near the end of this power stroke the exhaust valve vents off the pressure.
4) re-compression (of remaining exhaust gas)
5) power (by direct injection of water)
6) exhaust stroke

Now what is very key to this design is that the cooling system is done away with. The injection of water and making of steam directly cools the combustion chamber. Research engines are making about 20% more power on the same quantity of fuel.

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by olddog

A fellow by the name of Crower is working on a 6 stroke diesel.

While I have great respect for Mr.Crower, I am very aware of some of his innovations. I remember a conversion he made for big V8s back during the embargo years that allowed you to take 4 pistons/rods and the operating pieces for those cylinder out and effectively make you a V4. While it may have worked, the labor involved and the fact that it was used on 2+ ton cars pretty much nullified any potential savings that it "might" have given.
I also am familiar with Toyota's 2cycle 6 cylinder engine that used a 4 stroke engine with the cam driven one to one. I don't recall all the specifics of how it functioned, but once again...it didn't pan out. Let's not forget Smokey Yunick's "hot air" engine that used to turbos as "mixers" that was supposed to increase HP while operating on less fuel. All good ideas and some may have been viable...except...for one thing...they have to meet the emission standards, which get tougher all the time. With "global warming" the current in vogue mantra, they will only get tougher. I can sell you a brick to put under your throttle pedal that will get you much better mileage.... however...you get the picture. I will await a more developed and de-bugged unit. Any system that will require the average American to "participate" anymore tha just filling the tank is unlikely to advance very far. You can burn wood and make a car run, but you have to cut wood and build the "oven" and smoke transfer tubes. Most Americans can't even check their tire pressures regularly...maybe it would be better if they were off the road,LOL.

[vettestr]

OldDog and others have hit on some of the things that may be cumulative to the total WHY, but the mileage is improving. One strong possible is the advanced timing as many of the newer cars computers start with full advance and then each sensor retards the total. Browns gas has a small 02 content plus it carries moisture and the 130 octane level all makes the fuel charge more dense while NOT retarding the timing.

I did not stay at a Motel 6 last night so just winging it here but all the things above should be some help. I do not know why some feel that separating browns gas from water is so difficult or takes so much amperage because it is damn easy. I can produce more HHO than the smaller cubic 4 banger engine can use, more accurately I can not remove enough gasoline from the fuel map so engine becomes very rich. The engine is running on enough of the browns gas that if you turn off the HHO the engine will die and you can not restart until turning browns gas back on or returning gasoline delivery to the stock amount. Either way I am talking about a 25% increase in gas mileage as an average believe it or not. The engines power is up a little bit too, about the same turning the AC on and then off on this 4 cylinder engine (Saturn Vue).

[CobraDan]

I’m just as skeptical as those who have said only one thing BS but it seems there is enough hydrogen or browns gas produced from the 12 volt system and the HHO generator and then introduced to the gas that the added hydrogen means less gas has to be burnt or more miles per gallon. With all the information on the internet it just seems there is more to HHO than just a bunch of scam artists and certainly us discussing it in a sane way can’t hurt, plus driving a cobra we all need better gas mileage.