Got on it & BOOM

[MrMagoo]

Thanks Rick, that explains a lot. I knew they were being used in NASCAR, but I couldn't understand what would make them more vulnerable on the street. Ron and Patrick, I'll check my oil, not sure if I'm using SJ or SM. Do you guys use an additive?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MrMagoo

Ron and Patrick, I'll check my oil, not sure if I'm using SJ or SM. Do you guys use an additive?

I use BP with EOS added in -- but I have to, I run solid flat tappets so the ZDDP level is critical.

[StreetSnake]

My baby is making a trip down to the engine builder to get everything taken care of. He also recommended that I get a larger oil cooler and run #12 line vs. #10. I guess this has been a problem with the 351s that run coolers, the oil is too viscous and puts unnecessary strain on the dist. gear. Thanks again for everyones help and comments.

[Rick Parker]

patrickt:

Good article here:http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...nts/index.html

By the way EOS is again available at GM dealers, the formula may not be the same though (???)

[Joemaz]

If the Builder doesn't want to warranty the problem..... Drain the Oil and see if the parts fell to the bottom of the pan.....you might be able to get all the broken pieces with a magnet...the only other option would be to drop the Pan and clean out the debris.................since Your engine died at low RPM ..You might Luck out ..! without any damage to the engine....

The post by Rick Lake hit it on the nail........!

[vettestr]

Rick, Thanks for the article link, good read.

joemaz, The builder already has agreed to take a look at problem

[Slither]

Then again, you could go with a distributorless ignition with a crank trigger set up. Cures that problem. My .02!
My engine builder only uses "The Green Oil", Brad Penn.

[MrMagoo]

I dont know about larger hoses to the cooler reducing viscosity. I would imagine it would tend to increase flow, and aid cooling, (which would increase viscosity). Larger hoses would be less resistance though, irrespective of the viscosity of the oil, and maybe that helps, especially pushing cooler oil out of the cooler and back into the engine.

I have a cooler with -10AN, and I know most people are running -12AN these days.

I was told the following, with regard to lowering the load on the distributor. This applies to a street driven SBF stroker:

1) Don't punch it until your oil is warmed up > 80C/175F
2) Use a thermostat in your oil cooler setup. Mine is set pretty high, 112C/232F I believe.
3) 10W-40 is what Keith Craft recommended to me for my motor. Others have told me to avoid 20W-50 for normal street use.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

patrickt:

Good article here:http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...nts/index.html

By the way EOS is again available at GM dealers, the formula may not be the same thoiugh (???)

Good article, thanks. The new GM EOS still has quite the ZDDP, but the detergents have changed. I fear the new formulation is more directly targeted at engine break-in rather than extending the life, and zinc/phosphorous content, of your oil. I bought a case of EOS back before the switch so I'm still using the old stuff that did not have detergent levels this high; I should add that caveat to my posts recommending EOS. Of course, having too high of a detergent level defeats the purpose of the additives. I know in my archives I have a copy of the analysis of the old EOS, so after I wake up, have another two cups of coffee, and walk the dog, I'll see if I can find it and then edit this post to include it. Here's the analysis of the new stuff. Note the calcium level:

[will butterwort]

a bronze gear on ford distributor--older type--bronze gear sheared off in pretty cut pieces--shavings--drove car home from pigeon forge tennessee to ranburne alabama, 302, --pulled oilpan--the double hump kind--presto--there were the bronze gear shavings at bottom of oil pan in perfect round circle.Checked oil pickup screen close, cleaned pan, installed msd dist with iron gear new oil and fired her up.Ran great.Will-alabama

[patrickt]

Here's the old EOS. Note the increase in the detergent package. It has gone from roughly 8000ppm to almost 32,000ppm. A four fold incease; that is significant.





Search terms to help find this thread in the future: GM EOS, E.O.S. old versus new, ZDDP, Zinc content, Extended Oil Service, phosphorous, flat tappet wear

[vettestr]

Patrickt,
In reading your post you mention the 4 fold detergent package numbers in the NEW formula. Then said "Of course, having too high of a detergent level defeats the purpose of the additives." Are you thinking the amount of detergent in the new EOS negates the benefits or just that it it much higher than the Original?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by vettestr

Patrickt,
... Are you thinking the amount of detergent in the new EOS negates the benefits or just that it is much higher than the Original?

I don't know if the increase in Ca now offsets the benefits of the increase in ZDDP. The literature suggests that an increase in calcium detergent (as opposed to Ca/Mg or Ca/Mg/Na detergents) increases wear. Likewise, the literature also suggests that "too high a detergent level" is not good for your engine. I don't know why GM had to change it to begin with, but evidently they did.

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by Slither

Then again, you could go with a distributorless ignition with a crank trigger set up. Cures that problem. My .02!
My engine builder only uses "The Green Oil", Brad Penn.

Only if you also get rid of the internal oil pump, that's the load on the gear, not the distributor itself.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Only if you also get rid of the internal oil pump, that's the load on the gear, not the distributor itself.

But at least you will continue to get spark to run your engine even without that pesky oil pressure that's now running at zero thanks to the sheared gear....

[Rick Parker]

patrickt:

The auto manufacturers lobbied the oil companies to remove the products within the oils and lubricants, specifically ZDDP and phosphorus that contaminate and ultimately "poison" the required catalytic convertors. They (the Auto Mfrs) are obligated to provide warranty coverage for the emission systems including the convertors for 100,000 miles. With these products in the lubricants they consistantly struggle to reach that point. But with a reduced (read altered) additives package they stand a better chance. Hence the reduction of these chemicals. These repeatedly bond to the metal (as I have read) and become a renewable sacraficial barrier to prevent metal to metal scuffing friction associated with flat tappet cams (VS Roller type) and worm gears of which the cam and distributor are.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

patrickt:

The auto manufacturers lobbied the oil companies to remove the products within the oils and lubricants, specifically ZDDP and phosphorus that contaminate and ultimately "poison" the required catalytic convertors. They (the Auto Mfrs) are obligated to provide warranty coverage for the emission systems including the convertors for 100,000 miles. With these products in the lubricants they consistantly struggle to reach that point. But with a reduced (read altered) additives package they stand a better chance. Hence the reduction of these chemicals. These repeatedly bond to the metal and become a sacraficial barrier to prevent metal to metal scuffing friction associated with flat tappet cams (VS Roller type) and worm gears of which the cam and distributor are.

I understand why ZDDP levels have been lowered. I do not understand why GM changed their EOS formula.

[Rick Parker]

They could not knowingly sell a product themselves across their own parts counters that would create the same condition in any oil. The EOS had a VERY high ZDDP level. The EPA was involved too.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

They could not knowingly sell a product themselves across their own parts counters that would create the same condition in any oil. The EOS had a VERY high ZDDP level. The EPA was involved too.

OK, I guess I could understand it if GM had lowered the ZDDP; instead they kept that the same and just quadrupled the detergent.