Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[mhs6631]

I agree with you. The majic was Shelby in promoting the car into the american consciousness in the sixties. The venture was not financially sucessful so he went on to chili, africa, etc.

[Historybuff]

I heard that the IRS told Reventlow they didn't consider his business a business but a hobby (especially since he wasn't advertising cars for sale, which at least Cunningham was) so he wouldn't be able to continue to write off his expenses of building cars, campaigning them etc. I understand the IRS is more or less the same today-- if you have a business going for 5 years and never turn a profit for five years, then as far as they are concerned, it's a hobby. If you are an IRS employee, let me know if I am wrong.I also believe that Shelby-American never was profitable in the days they built Cobras, that everything was re-billed to Ford. There is an invoice in one of the Dave Friedman books for a Cobra that says right on it first bill Shelby American and then something like "rebill to Ford". Supposedly the reason that Shelby American was set up separately from Ford was sort of to have a "deniability" factor--if it turned out sour, Ford could cancel the contract and let them go off on their own.

There never would have been a need for Shelby American if Briggs Cunningham would have kept building his own cars and had a better powerplant--that Chrysler Hemi was too heavy, and Cunningham, for a sports car guy, didn't concentrate enough on lightweight roadsters, and they cost him too much to make in Italy to have a ghost of a chance of making a profit. But going back to a "promotable personality," Briggs Cunningham was already a multi-millioniare (his middle name was "Swift "as in Swift Meat Packing fortune) so asking him to schlep around to car dealerships and tout cars would have been a stretch, as such might conflict with his yachting or vacation trips to the Continent and so forth. Shelby was poor as a churchmouse so more amenable to signing up for a deal where he would be required to make rounds of car dealerships and car shows and "man the booth," wherever his sponsor required. And that brings us to the Shelby Mustang. If Ford's deal with Shelby had begun and ended just with the Cobra, we would be talking about a smaller footprint in history but when the GT40 came along and he helped reconfigure a dog to be competitive and the Shelby Mustang came along and resulted in a car that could be mass produced in the USA, the Shelby connection began to pay off for Ford. So in sum, he was the right guy with the right idea at the right time and regardless of what he's done since, he is a giant in American auto history.

[Historybuff]

Regarding Goober’s comment that the first Cobra had a 221 cu. in. engine while it was in its birthplace of Thames-Ditton, Surrey, I wonder if the Scottish owner knows what marque and chassis number car it was installed in while still at AC? Or was that in an AC still bearing the AC chassis number?

I read that Shelby went over to the UK and tested a car at Silverstone with this engine.


The most repeated story is that this car was later shipped sans engine to Dean Moon’s shop and there received a 260 cu. in. engine.
The car’s serial number is given as CSX2000
and there’s pictures of it on this website

http://www.csxinfo.net/csx2000/page4.htm

A prominent LA car collector has a very early Cobra. I didn’t know what the chassis number was until today—Oct. 24th,2008 when on a website called
http://saacforum.com/index.php?topic=801.0
they said
“ The following is from VeloceToday.com September 17, 2007

"A unique centerpiece will be the very first production Shelby Cobra, CSX2001, being restored for this occasion through the car’s owner and Chairman of the Petersen’s Checkered Flag 200 Group, Bruce Meyer."


They show a picture of the car, captioning it: "Shelby Cobra roadster s/n CSX2001 undergoing restoration by Mike McCluskey in California. This first production Cobra will be on display at the Petersen Museum for the tribute dinner, "An Evening with Carroll Shelby." Only Shelby himself owns an earlier Cobra, Prototype s/n CSX2000."

Another guy on the same site says:
-------------------------------------------
CSX2259
Newbie

Offline

Posts: 42




Re: 1963 REIMS, FRANCE AC COBRA
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2008, 11:42:35 AM »
________________________________________

Also of interest is the badging on the nose of the car, it uses both the first and second design badges. This car was the first production car assembled and to competition specification by Ed Hugus (east coast assembler and distributor for "SAI") for his friend. This car would be the first cobra sold to the public and the first competition car sold to the public by "SAI"......

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Much earlier, in a very old magazine, and I can’t find the reference, I read that the chassis number of the first Cobra ever built was CSX1001 but I guess a car builder can choose any numbering system he wants and before Shelby began production he
decided to make the first series a series beginning with the number “2”.

All this is background leading up to my question: What was the designated make and chassis number of the car that Shelby tested with the 221 cu. in. V8 in England?

If nobody knows that, another long-time unanswered question that floats around in my head is: “Has it ever been printed what the chassis number was the early 260 Cobra that Ford had, with the windshield not having a metal frame ( maybe it was plexiglass but still sized as high as a normal windshield, not a racing windscreen though I believe it had curved edges)?"

I know that this car was photographed at Ford’s Dearborn Proving Grounds because I recognized the fence (designed by Thomas Jefferson) as the one which I once scaled in a failed attempt to shoot pictures of upcoming cars.

I suspect that this was a very very early Cobra, perhaps CSX2000 and know that Ford tested the Cobra early on, but never read any reference to the chassis number of the one they tested in Dearborn.


In one of the old issues of Shelby American, they interviewed a former Ford engineer that said he tested an early Cobra with the requirement that the car be made suitable "for Mrs. Ford to drive" and that he tried many combinations of shock absorbers and springs until he got the car so it could handle. I suspect this might be the same car, but never subsequently saw a picture of Mrs. Ford (either the original Mrs. Henry Ford II or the second Italian-born Mrs. Henry Ford II) with "her car."

[Goober]

History Buff, I have somewhere info about the guy in Scotland with the 221. I will have to dig it out. I lived there 20 years working in the North Sea Oil and got to meet a lot of people in the UK who were AC nuts. Of course, Ken Rudd was probalby at the top of the list instead of CS. The person who owns the 221 knows the history of the motor. I believe it was fitted to the very first car that came to the US. Motor mounts fitted with the 221 and then removed to make way for the 260 that CS had in Calif. I'm almost sure this same car was airfreighted to the U.S.

Mark

[What'saCobra?]

Yes, HistoryB, the Reventlov case was a landmark IRS ruling (they are rather rare), upon which all of the ensuing litigation depends regarding "hobby losses". Obviously, Lance lost the case, but not without trying to win it.
His mom, Betty Hutton, wife of Comte danois Haugwitz-Reventlov paid the tax bill for sonny. He was pretty pissed and mortally embarrassed about the whole thing. He walked away in anger, which made Remmington and the Princeton Street facility available for Shelby. But, he was a great driver in his best years, with great car control.

CobraEd
Naw, it has NOT always been a Shelby Cobra, as you likely know. In the early years, Shelby was a nobody in the world of manufacturers or designers and AC Cars Limited was tres famuse, having won their classes all over the world, including SCCA Nationals and Championships. FORD certainly did not want THEIR name on it, other than the engine, for liability limitation purposes.
So, the 260 and 289's were called an AC Cobra. Look at the early brochures. Look at the early articles (though a few friends took liberties in Shelby's interests in a few places). As Shelby became more famous and won Championships with the car, AC were soon enough left roadside. Neither dishonest (precisely) nor necessary to AC success. They were happy to build more high quality Cobras per month than any company has ever been able to duplicate since, until Superformance. Though the build quality of the later AC cars were of even higher quality under Brian Angliss.
The Shelby Team did a great job and AC did their part, for which they were justly paid by FORD.
Carroll deserves all the praise he can garner, along with all the other chaps.
It is also accurate, however, to criticize some of the improper and wrongful practices he has associated with from time to time.
Famously, my favorite gripe in the day was shipping 428's and calling them 427's, at the same price.

[franklin]

If you read down to the Coupe Coupes section, click on the silver / gray picture, it says "Peter Brock's Daytona Coupe, taken the day before he died". Picture dated September 2006???? Huh? Who did I listen to then at Kirkham's openhouse?

[Nedsel]

H'buff, the car that AC tested in the UK with the 221 cubic inch engine was CSX 2000. They used an existing engine to set up the mounts for it, the transmission, etc. After testing, they removed the engine and shipped the car as the prototype to Shelby in L.A. where the new 260 cubic inch engine was installed in Dean Moon's shop.

Franklin, a well-known Australian named Peter Brock was killed a year or so ago in a road accident and it was widely assumed it was the Cobra-related writer/ photojournalist that was killed. As the car he was driving was a new Daytona Coupe, this was an easy mistake. Thankfully, as we all know, such was not the case.

[Don]

Was the Allard the first English car to use an American engine, Ford flathead V-8, Lincoln Zephyr V-12, Cadillac OHV V-8 ?

" Sydney J. Allard was an Englishman who built his first car to enter in the uniquely British form of motorsport called "trials" in the two years just before the World War II. Trials? Think hill climb meets Jeeper's Jamboree on often-muddy forest trails. Allard's affection for things American led him to use the Ford flathead V8 and even Lincoln Zephyr V12 for power in his homebuilt specials, and he saw enough success that others asked him to build cars for them. "

" Allard formed his company in 1946...."

" Allard favored off the shelf Detroit V-8s "

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...FREE/810149983

[rdinkins]

Hello, I'm a new 1966 Kit owner and love the car. I'm trying to do a little history on the car and I know a couple things and thought you all could help. One, the car was built in 1985 by a California kit company that was supposdly sued by Ford & Shelby for making an exact replica. I was told it was one of 37 made by this company, but can't find any other information. Anything would be helpful. Rick

[LMH]

You should start a new thread about your car and ask for info there. Post some photo's of your car in the thread too.
Larry

[mdross1]

Another can of worms for some to worry about. I own exactly what I have always wanted a small two seater sports car/hot rod with a very large American engine setup to do what I love to do very well. That cannot be taken away no matter how deep into history anyone digs.

[Tommy]

Dammed zombie threads are hard to kill.

[CHANMADD]

Originally Posted by Great Asp

I'm not a Shelby nutswinger at all, but wasn't he in the hunt for a small car to dump a V8 into? I thought he had some trial and error getting a car, and then found the AC. Have I got that right?

If so, you'd have to give him respect for the car since he built them at his shop.

E

I hate to break it o you ..but the cars were shipped fully constructed , even with a soft top on. All the Shelby team did was install engine and transmission.
then they went racing. Much like today ...the Mustangs arrive at the Shelby facility.....(note its not a factory )... fully complete from the Ford factory.
The Shelby workshop then removes parts and swaps them with others ....to end with a Shelby Mustang...

[Rickd]

The Shelby team had a lot to do with the recommended / requested chassis modifications to accept the American V-8 motors as well. Shelby put the program together .. got the initial car to test .. got the 260 V8 from Ford. That initial series of "road tests" by the automotive press was pure Shelby marketing. He had ONE car .. but repainted it for each magazine that tested the car so when the July car mags hit the stands there were pictures of a yellow cobra, a red one, white one and a black one .. i believe. Gave the impression that the Shelby Cobra was in production .. and they got orders. No Carroll Shelby and the "cobra" never would have existed. AC would have never had the international brand awareness that Shelby gave the company .. by using their "donor" body on a beefed up chassis, with an American V8.

[Tommy]

[mr bruce]

The Mighty Tin

[G-Pete]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

I'll make it real simple..... take Carroll Shelby out of existance, and you have no Cobra.
Pretty simple to me.

Amen!

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Power Surge View Post
I'll make it real simple..... take Carroll Shelby out of existance, and you have no Cobra.
Pretty simple to me.

I've said this over and over again. If Carroll hadn't grabbed the AC Ace as the starting point for the racing Cobra, the AC Ace would have disappeared just like the Berkeley. And we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Had Carroll made another choice as his starting point, the outcome would probably have been quite different, both in the evolution of the car to today's popularity, and in the winning race outcome.

[LMH]

You guys know this thread is 7 years old, right? The question asked by rdinkins in posting #69, which brought this back up, is about his car and not about the history of the Cobra.
Just wanted to point that out.
Larry

[G-Pete]

Originally Posted by LMH

You guys know this thread is 7 years old, right?
Larry

Sure Larry, and we are over 50..... hehehhe


How are ya bud?