Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[LMH]

51 actually.
Larry

[REAL 1]

I will second what someone said above. I don't care what the Brits say. No Shelby no Cobra. It is just that simple.

Further, but for Carroll Shelby..... AC Cars and all their cars including the Ace would be little more than a footnote in automotive history. The end.

[Trevor Legate]

On behalf of all the Brits - I concur. Of course there would not have been a Cobra - that's a statement of the Bleedin' Obvious. Even a Brit could figger that out, but it's about 75% sure there would have been a V8-powered Ace as both AC and Ken Rudd were on that case. But it would never have been so well developed, the 'legend' would never have been born (and hyped to the heavens) and the current unseemly scramble to 'invest' the kids inheritance would never have occurred. AC would have bumbled along for who knows how long? They did make some good cars but development was lacking as they thought they could do it all themselves. Either way, it had a good run since 1901. Not bad for a small, useless company. The UK has a history of small auto companies that came and went and left some good cars in their wake - Jensen, TVR, Marcos etc etc

I always amuses me that when Shelby American won the FIA GT Championship in 1965, the press coverage in the USA was zero as it was such a minor victory. And it remained at zero for years until the hype began. (There was a fairly major UK involvement in that class victory, but we don't talk about that either do we...

On the matter of the Ace - an historical footnote maybe, but check out its SCCA results first, before putting the boot in.

[LMH]

I think without a doubt a V8 Ace would have been built. Maybe it would have been the Ace RS289, since Rudd would have almost surely been involved?
Larry

[Buzz]

I think it's also worth saying that it's equally fair logic to recognize that without the Ace, there would be no Cobra either - as we know it, that is; though Shelby's dogged determination almost certainly would have led him to forge some sort of a deal between a sports car manufacturer and a US engine supplier.

The progeny of that marriage quite likely would have been a fast and formidable race car. It may even have been called a Cobra too, considering the possibility that a similar day with similar synaptic inputs and stimuli would lead Shelby to have the same eureka dream (or at least the likelihood that he would've stumbled across the acronym for COpper BRAzing at some point).

If such a car did come into existence, though, would it have posessed the striking, almost sexual beauty of that Tojeiro-designed shape that is just as critical a factor in the generation spanning appeal and charisma of the Cobra as it's legendary performance? I say possibly but unlikely.

The Cobra was a perfect storm of unlikely events and characters, all coaxed, cajoled, bluffed, bullied, inspired and led by one driven, remarkable man who pulled it all together and made it all happen. Take away a critical element like the AC Ace, and Shelby may still have built a car - but it would not likely have been the Cobra that we know today. Probably not even close.

[Trevor Legate]

All very true Buzz! When I first started on a Cobra book project circa 1979, I went to visit the handful of people in the UK who sold and owned Cobras and everyone said the same thing - it was the shape. The performance and noise was pretty darn good as well (of course) but the first thing that grabbed them was the look of the thing. It's is the perfect sports car shape even it was 'designed' more by accident (although Alan Turner at AC deserves huge credit for smoothing out the lines of the Tojeiro/Barchetta that AC purchased from John Tojeiro)

Having read the Shelby biography, and believed some of it, he always intended using the Cobra name because to him, it sounded right. It could have also been applied to the Austin Healey 3000 had Donald Healey liked the idea, or a Jensen or an Aston Martin. It just happened to be an AC. Fortunately.....

[What'saCobra?]

Whilst the early 260/289's were certainly AC Cobras and sold and raced as such, I would have little beef with calling all the 428/427's Shelby Cobras or Ford Cobras (with which the latter, FORD would have strongly disagreed, to lower liabilities).

AC billed FORD for the chassis and FORD netted the remittances from the Ford dealership sales with the standard engine and tranny invoices and sent the net to Shelby, minus some adjustments. Care was taken to show a modest taxable profit at Shelby for auto sales, helped after 1964 by GT 350 (etc) sales.

Shelby also was a sub-contractor to FORD for various projects, eventually including GT40 racing against Ferrari. In truth, Shelby American made precious little profit and without the Goodyear franchise and FORD projects might have also been scored as a Reventlov "hobby loss" entity by the IRS.

For instance, once FORD dropped any subsidy of the 289, all factory racing and manufacture stopped nearly overnight. So an otherwise fine classic car dropped off the edge of the world. It could not pay its way. But, it was a fine car in every way, but consumed by its own excesses as expressed in the 427's.

To my tastes, the sweeter racer and streeter were the BProduction 289's, without the excesses and drama-queen Webers... Lighter, quicker on tight tracks and less "fat a$$" bad boy image. Mine were always confused with Healeys, until the light changed. They were really great "Q" ships. No side pipes were tattletaling the punter's risk. 140 MPH at 7000 RPM was more than enough on the street. And little money easily brought around 350 HP. With the same street HP as the better Vettes and over 1000#'s less weight, Chevies were doomed.

When I bot ex-factory Bp racer CSX 2137 for $3750 in 1971, it became my favorite forever. Simply wonderful sportier. Very serious sleeper. 1900 lbs or so. Sunoco 260 and 10:1 heads. Firestone GP race rain tires on the street.

More is not always better. Ask Donna Mae Mims. Smarter is better. Adding lightness always pays. Ask Leon Musk. And Lotus' chairman Chapman.

Similarly, once the FORD 427 and Hemi blocks were outlawed by NASCAR, it's use to FORD disappeared and the Cobra 427/8 cars were lost forthwith. Of course, neither did they sell; in my opinion, because they were too expensive and excessive compared to 'Vettes and Jags. Too much fender, too much fuel and too much $$. Big depreciations were killer.

Frankly, my dear, I think the loss of the AC Cobra 289 to the excesses of simply too much of everything was a sorry day.

Terrible price to pay for a few seconds (or less!) per lap.

[A-Snake]

FWIW, By far the most used term on SA invoices for 289 Cobras in total was 'Cobra Ford'. The most used term for the 260 Cobras alone was 'Shelby AC Cobra.'

[Trevor Legate]

Had my first taste of actually driving the Cobra circa 1980. I spent a decent time behind the wheel of the ex-factory AC Cobra 289 followed shortly after by the 427. I loved the first and hated the second in equal measure. But that's just me (although I know I'm right...)

The car was always expensive since Shelby had secured a personal agreement with AC to pay him £50 (around $65) per car, a not inconsiderable sum in 1962. I doubt the Ford bean counters knew about that one.

[Brooklyn-427]

Ultimately AC would of sourced a fresh engine for the ACE eventually, Ford V8 or not ... devoid of Ole Shel who knows! They must of realised that times had changed, Jaguar and Healey had moved forward and were taking a sales lead with cars like the E type and 100/6.
TVR may have been a option for Shelby, they was more of a company that had the direction he was looking for.
Overall the Ace was the traditional British sports roadster, 289 car is car that became the iconic 427 .. History is written and cant be altered or changed.Its the chicken and egg.

[Brooklyn-427]

The British sportscar market was alive with other brands that all had ties to other engine manufacturers Bristol and Jenson were not sportscar manfacturers they built luxury gentleman express GT cars, that wasnt what Shelby was looking for.
Healey`s fait had been sealed with the tie in with Austin, unfortunately as history speaks before us Bristish Leyland killed them off otherwise a Rover V8 engined 3000 would of been the future for that car.

Basically without AC, Shelby may of not had the sucess he had overall, remeber he was just a worn out old race driver with health problems and big ideas!!!! It takes 2 too tango.

Now the whole AC Shelby Cobra project is fuelled by legend and big deep pockets that owes its thanks the guys like Arntz and Angliss for the vision they both had seperately.

[Brooklyn-427]

There is maybe 25 or so key manufacturers in the world with a reproduction of one car that is the most copied car in the world ever, so they must of done something right when you take away all the past and present media that surrounds it.

[Brooklyn-427]

Similarly, once the FORD 427 and Hemi blocks were outlawed by NASCAR, it's use to FORD disappeared and the Cobra 427/8 cars were lost forthwith. Of course, neither did they sell; in my opinion, because they were too expensive and excessive compared to 'Vettes and Jags. Too much fender, too much fuel and too much $$. Big depreciations were killer.

To me that just comfirms that Shelby and Ford just seen this a race car project to market their new showroom products.
AC cars continued with Mk111 289 car at that time because there was no market for the FE engine variant in England. And sales were falling back due to other reasons. The cobra was part of AC`s product line that had started 10 or more years before with the ACE they had too continue until they had another car to replace it with. Unlike Shelby who just dropped it like a lead weight too move forward with other new projects. It was yesterdays race car , speed and technogoly had progressed quickly.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn-427

The British sportscar market was alive with other brands that all had ties to other engine manufacturers Bristol and Jenson were not sportscar manfacturers they built luxury gentleman express GT cars, that wasnt what Shelby was looking for.
Healey`s fait had been sealed with the tie in with Austin, unfortunately as history speaks before us Bristish Leyland killed them off otherwise a Rover V8 engined 3000 would of been the future for that car.

Basically without AC, Shelby may of not had the sucess he had overall, remeber he was just a worn out old race driver with health problems and big ideas!!!! It takes 2 too tango.

Now the whole AC Shelby Cobra project is fuelled by legend and big deep pockets that owes its thanks the guys like Arntz and Angliss for the vision they both had seperately.

Completely fallacious. Without Shelby the Ace would have remained a nice little sports car and forgotten by history for the most part. No Carroll Shelby and Shelby American no Cobra. Period. As to the Cobra's success, AC had very little to do with that. Ever heard of Remmington, Brock, Miles, Gurney, Bondurant, McDonald.. ? I could go on for a awhile but won't.

Lets stop re-writing history shall we?

[Brooklyn-427]

Now the whole AC Shelby Cobra project is fuelled by legend and big deep pockets that owes its thanks the guys like Arntz and Angliss for the vision

I was referring to the future replica reproduction scene that came about after the fact.
i doubt shelby would of even bothered getting back into the cobra scene if it wasnt for people like Arntz and Angliss who started it all off again.
They was just old race cars that made his name one people widely knew.

[REAL 1]

Completely fallacious. Without Shelby the Ace would have remained a nice little sports car and forgotten by history for the most part. No Carroll Shelby and Shelby American no Cobra. Period. As to the Cobra's success, AC had very little to do with that. Ever heard of Remmington, Brock, Miles, Gurney, Bondurant, McDonald.. ?

Shelby was a worn out tired race car driver? Really? Fact is Shelby talked and AC listened. Have you been living under a rock?. The man was activily involved in the automobile industry from early 1962 to his death in 2012. I could go on for a awhile but won't.

Lets stop re-writing history shall we?

[Brooklyn-427]

O`man he couldnt race competively because of heart problems he would of just faded into the history books as a successful racing driver who won lemans for a English car team. Yeah now he is some kind of folklore hero for what he done to the automotive industry.. What ever happened to John Delorean.

[Brooklyn-427]

There aint many ex-racing drivers that have a second breath after there success on the track. Maybe some of the more recent drivers but back then most just continued out of the limelight.
Shelby was very lucky to get the backing from Ford after chevrolet rejected him and the basis of the whole car from AC Cars. Otherwise it just happens he might of been looking elsewhere... Ford liked the idea of having him marketing there engine products with competition racing.

[Brooklyn-427]

There is a modern take on this story that somewhat unrelated but similar.
Morgan sports cars .. they lost the Rover/buick v8 engine, not the only engine in there range of sportscars but the most powerful offering they had.
Now they use BMW supplied V8 engines... i doubt BMW went grovelling to morgan for them to use their engines. I somewhat imagine Morgan put a heart felt business plan to them for the use and supply of BMW drivetrain products.
I never heard of a story of AC cars head hunting Ole Shel...
He took a chance on AC it worked in his favour , AC was not short of budding people to take the ACE forward ... If only they had followed on with Ken Rudd, that would of been a interesting twist on

[Brooklyn-427]

What alot of people forget is AC could of contracted any number of engineers to carry out similar work to what Shelbys cailfornia hotrodders done. England was filled with talented guys who had cut there heels on racing Bentleys Aston Martins and such like.

Ken Miles wasnt the only tea drinking English Knight with super skills that Shelby could of hooked up with back in them days. He was another string to the Shelby bow at that time....

Im not trying to re write history im just saying what alot of the Brits here sometimes touch on but fail to fully engage with. There is alot of underline things that got over looked in the grand story of this.
Its somewhat a single sided story sometimes on a double edged sword.