Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[Trevor Legate]

And now my brain hurts.

(Should that be "could of hurt"? Arrgghh - two nations divided by a common language)

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

And now my brain hurts.

(Should that be "could of hurt"? Arrgghh - two nations divided by a common language)

Trevor,

I believe that one person on this thread is perhaps misguided. perhaps he read something by W.W. and believes it to be fact, instead of the twisted fiction we are all used to. The quote "me thinks thou protest too much" comes in to play.

But then again, what would "I" know


Bill S.

[Joe's Garage]

Putting a V8 in an AC roadster was not Shelby's brainchild, this had already been done by a Brit as early as '57 with other European racers following suit in '59. Shelby got into the picture in '62 after the success of those early prototypes had been well documented. You can think of Shelby as the "father" of the cobra in the USA, but the genius of the idea and path finding of the design (including body style) clearly resides with the Brits.

[Xack]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Trevor,

I believe that one person on this thread is perhaps misguided. perhaps he read something by W.W. and believes it to be fact, instead of the twisted fiction we are all used to. The quote "me thinks thou protest too much" comes in to play.

But then again, what would "I" know


Bill S.

I agree whole-heartedly... We all agree that we love the Cobra and what it is. Why and who are interesting enough, but not really that important. Down to the point. We love Cobras. Don't get lost in the details which are nothing more than a place to put your curiosity from the love of the car. While Carroll Shelby is an important figure and most statements to honor him are worthwhile, the fact remains, it's the car, not Carroll we love. I would invite you to develop/post on the Carroll Shelby Club website(s).

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

Had my first taste of actually driving the Cobra circa 1980. I spent a decent time behind the wheel of the ex-factory AC Cobra 289 followed shortly after by the 427. I loved the first and hated the second in equal measure. But that's just me (although I know I'm right...)

I thought I was the only one who felt that way. Certainly the 289 is more of a streetable car, whereas the 427 is more of a race car. On the street, I never felt my 427 (Windsor based) was getting enough RPM to exercise it, even on the highway. A 289 would have allowed a little more operation at the higher RPM range. Obviously on the track the 427 would feel fine.

For this reason when/if I get another Cobra it will be a 289.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

And now my brain hurts.

(Should that be "could of hurt"? Arrgghh - two nations divided by a common language)

My brain hurts too. Pretty much everywhere he uses "of" should be "have". Probably went to school in the 80s when they ditched spelling and grammar.

[twobjshelbys]

All of the comparisons of Shelby/AC to Morgan/BMW, etc are apples and oranges. The latter are producing cars for a consumer market. Shelby was looking for a frame/body to propel his engine around the track. Shelby didn't put a 289 in a AC to help save AC. He did it because he had a reliable source for a lightweight body that when combined with the 289 engine (first a 260) and provided a race car with a competitive advantage. The fact that some of the cars were sold to the public was because of homologation requirements (that still exist today.)

[HealeyRick]

Originally Posted by Trevor Legate

It could have also been applied to the Austin Healey 3000 had Donald Healey liked the idea, or a Jensen or an Aston Martin. It just happened to be an AC. Fortunately.....

The Healey involvement with Shelby's plan is pretty well known. Shelby came to Donald Healey with a proposal to put Chevrolet motors into the Healey 3000. Shelby had been a Healey factory driver and they were well known to each other. Donald was no stranger to V8 power and swapped a Chevy V8 into his personal Jensen 541 and favored Shelbys proposal and was willing to provide Shelby with a Healey chassis. It was Austin, not Donald Healey that nixed the idea. Word is too, that Chevrolet had no interest in providing motors to power a car that would be a likely Corvette killer.

Originally Posted by Brooklyn-427

Healey`s fait had been sealed with the tie in with Austin, unfortunately as history speaks before us Bristish Leyland killed them off otherwise a Rover V8 engined 3000 would of been the future for that car.

Most of the reason Healey died was the implementation of the US safety and emission standards. According to Donald Healey in his autobiography, there was no way the 3000 could meet the side impact standards nor could a catalytic converter be added under the terribly low-slung Healey chassis. Nevertheless, if Healey continued, they would have used the 3 liter 6 cylinder Austin Princess motor built by Rolls Royce. Three of these prototypes were built and are known as Rolls-Healeys or Healey 4000s. Austin had developed a twin cam head for the motor, which Healey really wanted to get their hands on. But it was Lord Stokes, head of Leyland, that was hot to rid himself of Healey and MG in favor of Triumph, which he used to head. MG continued on and came out with the MGC as a replacement for the Healey, although the 6 cylinder C motor was not based on the Healey motor as some think. It's interesting to note that despite the availability of the Buick-Olds-Rover motor, it took the independent work of Ken Costello putting them into MGBs to drag MG into eventually offering their own factory version in 1973.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn-427

What alot of people forget is AC could of contracted any number of engineers to carry out similar work to what Shelbys cailfornia hotrodders done. England was filled with talented guys who had cut there heels on racing Bentleys Aston Martins and such like.

Ken Miles wasnt the only tea drinking English Knight with super skills that Shelby could of hooked up with back in them days. He was another string to the Shelby bow at that time....

Im not trying to re write history im just saying what alot of the Brits here sometimes touch on but fail to fully engage with. There is alot of underline things that got over looked in the grand story of this.
Its somewhat a single sided story sometimes on a double edged sword.

First why do you post 4 times to continue a train of thought? (if that is one train of thought).

Why is it in any way relevant as to what AC could of/might have/should have done? We are talking what was done. You know...if I had wheels I'd have been a race car. Part of the magic of the Shelby story is that it wasn't a car company with millions and years of experience in manufacturing and design or backed by or receiving money from any government that created a world beater.... it is the fact that it was just a bunch of American "Hot Rodders" who accomplished what they did and created one of the most iconic cars of all time.

Yes, there were other talented English drivers in that period of time. And your point is?????????

You're a Brit? Really???? I envisioned you sitting next to a moonshine Still in the hills of Kentucky chew'n some tabbackky. .

[LMH]

Oh brother... Half-truth, opinion and just plain wrong. Here we go again.
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

Oh brother... Half-truth, opinion and just plain wrong. Here we go again.
Larry

This is the Internet. Did you expect something else?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

My brain hurts too. Pretty much everywhere he uses "of" should be "have". Probably went to school in the 80s when they ditched spelling and grammar.

I believe the Millennials and the advent of texting are responsible for the lost art of spelling and grammar. Don't blame it on the 1980's.

[LMH]

I'm a product of and came of age (so to speak) in the 80's! I can spell, to some extent and use proper grammar, also to some extent. Sometimes, words and phrases like 'like", "gag me", "tripindicular" and 'tubular" find their way out as well!
Larry

[Rickd]

Wow .. thought this thread had ended after page 2 with the unanimous "no Shelby = no cobra", but now I see some Brit apparently feels that somehow it was AC that is responsible for the birth, existence, and success of the cobra? Because in hindsight "the Brits had the talent to have done it if they had so chosen"? But they didn't. It is like saying, after looking at yesterdays winning lottery number, "Oh I am familiar with those numbers, I could have arranged them in that order and won".

Shelby was not some old washed up race car driver. He was an incredibly competitive racing program developer. He needed a lightweight sports car to put a small block V8 in. Requested chassis modifications from AC to handle the power. Got Ford to pony up a 260 to start, and after getting 289's in the car .. took it racing on the US circuit from coast to coast. Had to sell some due to homologation rules. So the "public" got to drive and race as well.

Shelby had a vision, and a plan. The plan was attacking the USA sports car racing circuit as part of developing a race car to compete in the FIA circuit. AC had a nice little - very pretty - car, on an island just off the European continent, and no plan or vision whatsoever, other than primarily getting another 4 cylinder engine to continue enjoying the countryside.

No Shelby .. no cobra .. and no cobra "replicas".

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Rickd

,,,AC had a nice little - very pretty - car, on an island just off the European continent, and no plan or vision whatsoever, other than primarily getting another 4 cylinder engine to continue enjoying the countryside,,,

Another one who knows not of what he speaks -

AC ACE History
Early cars used AC's elderly 100 bhp (75 kW) two-litre overhead cam straight-six engine (circa 1953)

From 1956, there was the option of Bristol Cars' two-litre 120 bhp (89 kW) straight-six with 3 downdraught carburettors and slick four-speed gearbox.

In 1961 a new 2.6-litre (2,553 cc /155.8 cu in) straight-six 'Ruddspeed' option was available, adapted by Ken Rudd from the unit used in the Ford Zephyr. It used three Weber or SU carburetors and either a 'Mays' or an iron cast head. This setup boosted the car's performance further, with some versions tuned to 170 bhp (127 kW), providing a top speed of 130 mph (209 km/h) and 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in 8.1 seconds.

Had AC not hooked up with Shelby I'm sure a much more refined AC ACE would have continued to evolve, the Ruddspeed was a formidable racer in its' own right at the time. Shelby came along and continued what AC had already started. As I said in post #103, Brits were the first to put V8's in the ACE, not Shelby.

The fact is, Shelby was a value-added re-seller for AC Bristol in the USA and nothing more. Give credit where credit is due, Shelby stuffed a larger V8 in a British roadster and called it a "Cobra", that's it. This whole thing reminds me of the history surrounding Tesla vs. Edison. Edison gets all the credit but it was done on Tesla's back using his inventions and patents.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Xack

I agree whole-heartedly... We all agree that we love the Cobra and what it is. Why and who are interesting enough, but not really that important. Down to the point. We love Cobras. Don't get lost in the details which are nothing more than a place to put your curiosity from the love of the car. While Carroll Shelby is an important figure and most statements to honor him are worthwhile, the fact remains, it's the car, not Carroll we love. I would invite you to develop/post on the Carroll Shelby Club website(s).

Absolutely incorrect. While there are many that didn't like him for some of the shannanigans he pulled while alive there are also as many if not more that loved and respected him for all the good and great things he did. I'm one of them. Btw did you ever buy anything with his autograph? People paid for it if you didn't know.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Another one who knows not of what he speaks -

AC ACE History
Early cars used AC's elderly 100 bhp (75 kW) two-litre overhead cam straight-six engine (circa 1953)

From 1956, there was the option of Bristol Cars' two-litre 120 bhp (89 kW) straight-six with 3 downdraught carburettors and slick four-speed gearbox.

In 1961 a new 2.6-litre (2,553 cc /155.8 cu in) straight-six 'Ruddspeed' option was available, adapted by Ken Rudd from the unit used in the Ford Zephyr. It used three Weber or SU carburetors and either a 'Mays' or an iron cast head. This setup boosted the car's performance further, with some versions tuned to 170 bhp (127 kW), providing a top speed of 130 mph (209 km/h) and 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in 8.1 seconds.

Had AC not hooked up with Shelby I'm sure a much more refined AC ACE would have continued to evolve, the Ruddspeed was a formidable racer in its' own right at the time. Shelby came along and continued what AC had already started. As I said in post #103, Brits were the first to put V8's in the ACE, not Shelby.

The fact is, Shelby was a value-added re-seller for AC Bristol in the USA and nothing more. Give credit where credit is due, Shelby stuffed a larger V8 in a British roadster and called it a "Cobra", that's it. This whole thing reminds me of the history surrounding Tesla vs. Edison. Edison gets all the credit but it was done on Tesla's back using his inventions and patents.

Except for his misstatement about the engine size at the end of Rickd's post he is dead nuts right and all you are doing is speculating while giving us a dissertation on AC engine sizes. Your analogy of Edison and Tesla is also fallacious.

[REAL 1]

Joe'sGarage:

So tell me...how many FIA world championships did AC win with their V8 power Rudd Speed or any other power train they were thinking of using in the Ace between '57 and '62 or for that matter enlighten me as any major racing event AC won with it sanctioned by a major racing body such as the FIA?

Fact is AC was looking to hang on to a sales market by putting a small V8 into the Ace but they had no thoughts, drive or intention of making it a world beater like Shelby. But for Shelby AC would have sold however many V8 powered Aces they would have sold and after a while the car would have become dated and resigned to the history books as another nice little English sports car. Thats all it would have remained.

Shelby is the one who took what was there, refined it for performance, developed it, renamed it and took it racing world wide. He made it recognizable worldwide, made it a household name and an icon. Its is just that simple.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

. . . . . . . . Based upon Wikipedia, AC gets 95% of the credit. Seems like o'l Carol had very little to do with it. Who the hell writes this stuff ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra


.

Historians and fact checkers adept at weeding out the BS to get to the truth.

REAL_1, history is clearly not your strong suit. I will give you this, Shelby knew how to market his value-added AC ACE, on that we can agree.

[LMH]

To speculate what AC would have accomplished with a V8 Ace is just that, speculation. There's little doubt it would have been built since Ford and AC were working together before Shelby was involved. Shelby is the one who put the team together and won the races that's true but no one knows what AC would have accomplished w/o him.
If you're suggesting the British couldn't have won races without an American, you're clueless.
Larry