Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I haven't read every word in this thread, but these couple of sentences pretty much sum of Evan. I see nothing has changed.

Then he asks you to cite "specifically and factually", but he can't even cite his own specifics and facts.

I'm done with it. It's not up to me to take Evan to school. He can spend ten years studying these cars, endlessly bugging and bothering the true experts and a year assisting on the restoration of an original and educate himself. Hopefully those who don't know who he is will read the whole thread and understand that what he posts may or may not be facts but rather opinion.
Even the Gods of our hobby will tell you they are still learning and it never stops.
Larry

[ACademic]

I started at page 9 (the end) and then went backward just one page to understand what all the uproar was over. Then my head exploded.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

I'm done with it. It's not up to me to take Evan to school. He can spend ten years studying these cars, endlessly bugging and bothering the true experts and a year assisting on the restoration of an original and educate himself. Hopefully those who don't know who he is will read the whole thread and understand that what he posts may or may not be facts but rather opinion.
Even the Gods of our hobby will tell you they are still learning and it never stops.
Larry

Your done with it? Runniing away? You still haven't told us where I was wrong. all of my statements have sources in authoritative books including Trevor's book," Cobra the Real thing.".

I didn't spin this info out of thin air and I have been very specific. I have not posted any opinion but rather facts and the unavoidable conclusions based on fact. You clearly do not understand the differene between fact and opinion.

Maybe someone as knowing as you can show us where I am wrong. Anyone?

Yes,the learning never stops in this hobby so again tell us specifically where I went astray. Many innocents and just me would benefit from your depth of knowledge.

Waiting.

[4pipes]

I'm starting to think their hobby is arguing on Clubcobra and not the actual enjoyment of the cars.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

I'm done with it. It's not up to me to take Evan to school. He can spend ten years studying these cars, endlessly bugging and bothering the true experts and a year assisting on the restoration of an original and educate himself. Hopefully those who don't know who he is will read the whole thread and understand that what he posts may or may not be facts but rather opinion.
Even the Gods of our hobby will tell you they are still learning and it never stops.
Larry

Your done with it? Running away? You still haven't told us where I was wrong. all of my statements have sources in authoritative books including Trevor's book," Cobra, the Real thing.".

I didn't spin this info out of thin air.

Yes,the learning never stops in this hobby so again tell us specifically where I went astray. Help us learn. Many innocents and not just me would benefit from your depth of knowledge.

You clearly don't grasp the difference between fact and opinion. I have set forth historical fact with specificity. You have painted with a broad brush. The conclusions from the facts are unavoidable as to who did what and who was responsible for what. I set them forth.

Waiting.

[LMH]

That's it Evan, just keep right on underscoring my point. Argument for nothing more than argument.
Larry

[HealeyRick]

Anyone want to see what CS said about it? Dave MacDonald had a big influence on construction of the Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe - Racing Legend Dave MacDonald, images, videos, Shelby Cobra, Corvette, Indianapolis 500 NASCAR, Dave MacDonald Cobra Daytona Coupe with Pete Brock

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

That's it Evan, just keep right on underscoring my point. Argument for nothing more than argument.
Larry

Ok Larry. Without me being a wise$$ tell me specifically where I am wrong.

Here it is in a nutshell from my side. Shelby brought the Ford V8 idea to AC. His idea was to build a world champion. AC wanted to sell more Aces. Shelby/SAI tested, drove and told AC what had to be done as to improvements, strengthening and refinements to make it viable and reliable to win. AC engineered the changes and incorporated them in production. Shelby got a Cobra to race and AC got a Cobra to sell. The end.

[LMH]

Well, without you being a wise$$, that's pretty much right on. The only thing I would add, and w/o being a wise-a$$ myself, is that AC made changes and improvements as well based on their own testing/racing. Their (AC) involvement in racing wasn't to the extent of SAI for sure but there were improvements made to the cars non the less. Racing improves the breed. (Wish I knew who said that!)
Larry

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by LMH

Well, without you being a wise$$, that's pretty much right on. The only thing I would add, and w/o being a wise-a$$ myself, is that AC made changes and improvements as well based on their own testing/racing. Their (AC) involvement in racing wasn't to the extent of SAI for sure but there were improvements made to the cars non the less. Racing improves the breed. (Wish I knew who said that!)
Larry

Were AC's improvements on top of or independent of the Shelby improvements?

And by independent I mean "sealed" - the AC team had to know nothing of the Shelby team's work. This is common in subcontracting work now. But in a small team like AC it is unlikely such a separate development could have occurred.

If on top of, the discussion is over. If independent, well, the best man won.

[LMH]

By changes, I mean in the production of the leaf spring cars. To be honest here, I don't know as much about the coil spring cars as I do the leaf spring cars.
Changes were made throughout the entire run of Cobras. Some small and some more in depth. When questions arise about what exactly is "original", there's often no easy answer to that question. Changes were made based on feedback from SAI, from independents, Ford and internally within AC themselves. I think your question is more about SAI as a race team and race cars are a different animal. Even within SAI themselves, race cars were different from each other in some ways as they were prepared by different crews. In those terms, my guess ( and it is a guess) is that changes specified by SAI were major changes that AC did for a single car or group of cars that were ordered as race cars. Those were normally shipped with specified changes and usually unpainted.
Did I hit your question?
Larry

[Bernica]

I am trying to stay out of this but have to wonder what the likes of Phil Remington, Pete Brock and many others would have to say about this. Sadly, we can't ask Phil.
Good luck on the debate!

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Bernica

I am trying to stay out of this but have to wonder what the likes of Phil Remington, Pete Brock and many others would have to say about this. Sadly, we can't ask Phil.
Good luck on the debate!

Peter Brock on Carroll Shelby, Car & Driver interview -

Car & Driver: What was Shelby like as a boss?

Peter Brock: Well, he could be suave with women. But [Ford racing boss] Jacque Passino once told me, “That old chicken farmer is so dumb that I have to have three lawyers around me or I’ll lose my wallet and my pants.” Carroll was a good driver, but he didn’t know much about cars, so he surrounded himself with guys who did. He was selective about what he tried, so he came off as a guy who knew what he was doing. Man, he could lay that Texas accent on so thick you couldn’t understand a word, then he’d fly to Detroit and speak perfect English.

More here What I'd Do Differently: Peter Brock – Feature – Car and Driver

[Bernica]

IMHO, Phil Remington was a HUGE part in making the Cobras work and taking the stuff from AC off the boat or plane and making them what they were. CS saw that and let him run..CS wasn't stupid (surround yourself with smart folks).
I was fortunate to meet Phil at SAI in the late 60's at the shop and saw him in action. He was brilliant. Again, IMHO...

[Jamo]

Dear Evan

Would you please stop being a dick? You know damn well you can make your point without being so snide and antagonistic.

Yours very truly,

Me

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Dear Evan

Would you please stop being a dick? You know damn well you can make your point without being so snide and antagonistic.

Yours very truly,

Me

Dear Me: Ok.

Regards,

You

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

Well, without you being a wise$$, that's pretty much right on. The only thing I would add, and w/o being a wise-a$$ myself, is that AC made changes and improvements as well based on their own testing/racing. Their (AC) involvement in racing wasn't to the extent of SAI for sure but there were improvements made to the cars non the less. Racing improves the breed. (Wish I knew who said that!)
Larry

Well I can live with that but Tony raised a very good point. While I have no doubt AC made some tweaks based on there own use I'm confident that the major production changes making the car a winner and making it a completely different car than an Ace came from SAI.

Also while Shelby was not a mechanic or engineer he was a very talented driver and could drive a car and communicate what the issues were leading to improvements. If memory serves me he was one of the first to drive the prototype at Silverstone immediately revealing some weaknesses. Additionally he was surrounded by a a lot of guys who were talented in both.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Well I can live with that but Tony raised a very good point. While I have no doubt AC made some tweaks based on there own use I'm confident that the major production changes making the car a winner and making it a completely different car than an Ace came from SAI ,,,

So now we're back to this ...

Originally Posted by LMH

My problem with you Evan is you skew history and fact to fit your own idea of how things should have been. You know only enough to support your own position and disregard the rest because it doesn't fit ,,,

Fortunately we have that black and white print in the chassis manual to fall back on ...

Originally Posted by LMH

,,, From the chassis manual that came in every car, including the ones imported to Shelby:

"The A.C. Cobra is designed and built at the A.C. Factory, England..."
"Shelby American Inc. are responsible for the conception of the car, and in America for fitting of the engine, and gearbox, manufactured by Ford Motor Company of America",,,

[LMH]

Here's a simplistic overview as an example:
Ford is switching to alternators during the Cobra production. AC engineers a mount that bolts to the engine, mounts the alternator and fits in the car.
Involvement Ford and AC.
The wiring harness needs to be adapted to the alternator.
Involvement Ford, Lucas and AC.
Shelby wants U.S. spec cars to have SW gauges.
Involvement SA, AC and SW.
I know it's a simplistic overview but it involves a number of different entities to make the changes and improvements happen.
Larry

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by LMH

I know it's a simplistic overview but it involves a number of different entities to make the changes and improvements happen.
Larry

And now days I see the same thing...collaborative improvement of the product.
Ford bought Jaguar and saved them from extinction
Chrysler was Damlier and now is FIAT
And VW owns everything else ...