Shelby little involvement in creating the Cobra

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by jetblue69

Holy cow this was entertaining. Especially after I realized this wasn't a PMS self help thread. Jesus Christ, what a bunch of women on here.

No one gives a **** who created the car! It's sexy, it's fast and DAMN IT'S FAST!

So why are you on this thread?

[db replicas]

Another way of looking at it...

Say you buy a 2015 "Genuine Shelby" or "Kirkham" roller, and you take it to Greasy Joe's Garage and pay him to install the motor and tranny. Do you call it a "Greasy Joe's Cobra"?
No, certainly not, you call it a Shelby or Kirkham because that's who "Manufactured" the car (Or maybe not in the case of Shelby, but that's another story).

So on that same reasoning you would naturally call it an AC would you not???

I think like other branded tuners you should use both names. AMG Mercedes etc.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

LMH - True regarding the 427 Cobra. The original small block Cobras, the ones that "started it all", were all AC. AC had already made the mods for a SBF (namely the Ford Zephyr engine). They reworked the front end, put in a stronger rear end, added outboard brakes and moved the steering box to clear the V8. What AC exported to Shelby was a completed, trimmed and painted car without motor & trans for Shelby to put in.

REAL_1 - As for Shelby, no question he took AC's recipe of a V8 powered roadster and eventually made it work in the states, but the "I got there first" award goes to AC Cars with the 24 hours of Le Mans finish in '63. That proved the racing viability of the car by an AC Cars Ltd team, not Shelby.

The question the OP asked is why "AC gets 95% of the credit" for the Cobra? Above are the reasons why.

Sure, a diatribe into the racing history of Shelby after the AC Cars Le Mans performance, and 2 years later with a 2nd gen Shelby Cobra, may deflect some of the attention away from AC, but OT to the subject of this thread. From an historical standpoint, your comments are a lame diversion transparent to most who see the irrelevance to the OP's question. An analogy to your argument would be giving William Tell credit for the invention of the crossbow. WikipediA has it right on the AC Cobra, choke on it

Ah, a Brit. Finally you have run your flag up the mast. Don't get me wrong I love the Brits but they do have a tendency to rewrite history on this subject.

Yes, the Wiki article went through all the improvements AC made to the Ace before Shelby came along. No one disputes they made some improvements to the little Ace. But tell me. Did they have plans to make a world champion? Were they developing the car for that purpose? Did they race test it, compete with it? Did they improve it to the point it was a viable world champion in it's class?

This thread has do with the "Cobra" not the Ace. You have become confused. Let me help a little.

The Ace was not a Cobra prior to Shelby appearing. The basic unfinished car was there but it was not a "Cobra" yet. It had quite a ways to go in testing and development before it was "Cobra".

In fact engine alternatives had dried up for AC prior to Shelby appearing on the scene. Bristol supply evaporated. The sales of the Rudd Speed with the Zephyr 2.6 Ford V8 faltered. Sources from GM and Diamler Benz flopped. Things looked bleak for AC at that time circa 1959-1960 for AC did they not?

Then a Texan showed up with two 260 cu. in. engines in his pocket at AC. AC was more then happy to receive him. While Shelby was not an engineer he knew what made a race car work. Shelby American did much more than drop in the new little light weight 260 cu in in Dean Moon's shop. All of the testing that was conducted by SAI revealed where many improvements and strengthening was needed beyond the rear axles and inboard brakes. It was SAI that sent back the info and data to AC from testing for the manufacturing modifications and corrections needed. Not visa versa. Thats the key.

The Ace was not a Cobra and far from it. It provided the basic canvass from which the Cobra was created. It was SAI and Shelby that transformed it to the "Cobra". You seem to ignore this part of the facts and history.

It was Shelby who had the idea to bring the 260 cu in Ford to AC not the other way around. It was Shelby who wanted to build a world champion not the other way around. It was Shelby's racing efforts, sweat and grit efforts that develop and made the Cobra a world champion and a household name. Not AC.

Your analogy is very poor. William Tell did not invent the cross bow or make it world class weapon. I don't know who actually invented the crossbow but if we are drawing analogies Shelby is the guy who took the standard bow and made it the crossbow.

Cheers. ; )

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by db replicas

Another way of looking at it...

Say you buy a 2015 "Genuine Shelby" or "Kirkham" roller, and you take it to Greasy Joe's Garage and pay him to install the motor and tranny. Do you call it a "Greasy Joe's Cobra"?
No, certainly not, you call it a Shelby or Kirkham because that's who "Manufactured" the car (Or maybe not in the case of Shelby, but that's another story).

So on that same reasoning you would naturally call it an AC would you not???

I think like other branded tuners you should use both names. AMG Mercedes etc.

You are so lost I don't I can help.

[db replicas]

Originally Posted by real 1

you are so lost i don't i can help.

oh yes :-)

[LMH]

In fact engine alternatives had dried up for AC prior to Shelby appearing on the scene. Bristol supply evaporated. The sales of the Rudd Speed with the Zephyr 2.6 Ford V8 faltered. Sources from GM and Diamler Benz flopped. Things looked bleak for AC at that time circa 1959-1960 for AC did they not?

Wrong. Engine alternatives for AC had not "dried up" and AC was not a faltering company. The final RS2.6 cars were finished while AC geared up for production of the Cobra. And the 2.6 is an inline 6, not a V8.

Then a Texan showed up with two 260 cu. in. engines in his pocket at AC. AC was more then happy to receive him. While Shelby was not an engineer he knew what made a race car work. Shelby American did much more than drop in the new little light weight 260 cu in in Dean Moon's shop. All of the testing that was conducted by SAI revealed where many improvements and strengthening was needed beyond the rear axles and inboard brakes. It was SAI that sent back the info and data to AC from testing for the manufacturing modifications and corrections needed. Not visa versa. Thats the key.

Wrong. The first engine fitted to the chassis and modified into the Cobra was a 221CID V8. Shelby didn't show up with the engine either. Rather Ford had just literally just come out with the lightweight V8 and Shelby's idea was to put it into the Ace car that became the Cobra. Ford was already there before Shelby.

The Ace was not a Cobra and far from it. It provided the basic canvass from which the Cobra was created. It was SAI and Shelby that transformed it to the "Cobra". You seem to ignore this part of the facts and history.

Somewhat correct. Cobra's were a car constantly in change through out the leaf spring production. In fact, the cars most like each other are the last of the series. SA and AC and Ford all had a hand in the changes made during production.

It was Shelby who had the idea to bring the 260 cu in Ford to AC not the other way around. It was Shelby who wanted to build a world champion not the other way around. It was Shelby's racing efforts, sweat and grit efforts that develop and made the Cobra a world champion and a household name. Not AC.

Pretty much true. Keep in mind though that AC cars were raced long before any Cobra part was even an idea. Even during the Cobra production, AC developed and raced the A98 coupe w/o any involvement from SA at all. They didn't even know about it at the time.
Larry

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

Wrong. Engine alternatives for AC had not "dried up" and AC was not a faltering company. The final RS2.6 cars were finished while AC geared up for production of the Cobra. And the 2.6 is an inline 6, not a V8.


Wrong. The first engine fitted to the chassis and modified into the Cobra was a 221CID V8. Shelby didn't show up with the engine either. Rather Ford had just literally just come out with the lightweight V8 and Shelby's idea was to put it into the Ace car that became the Cobra. Ford was already there before Shelby.


Somewhat correct. Cobra's were a car constantly in change through out the leaf spring production. In fact, the cars most like each other are the last of the series. SA and AC and Ford all had a hand in the changes made during production.


Pretty much true. Keep in mind though that AC cars were raced long before any Cobra part was even an idea. Even during the Cobra production, AC developed and raced the A98 coupe w/o any involvement from SA at all. They didn't even know about it at the time.
Larry

1. I didn't say AC was faltering. Read more carefully. I said the sales of the Rudd Speed began to falter.

2. You really think i literally meant he showed up with the 260 at their door? yes the first motor was the 220 but it was never a Cobra production motor and was replaced immediately with the 260. Yes he got two motors from Iacoca at Ford then went to AC but I didn't think I needed to recite the basics here. Guess I was wrong.

3. Again read more carefully. Yes, AC had a role in development along the way. Their role was mostly engineering for manufacture the modifications and improvements SA wanted based on race testing. Determining the changes needed was by SA. Yes AC raced a 289 Cobra in competition but it was a Cobra with all the developmental changes and improvements resulting from SA testing. As to the AC Coupe, I'm pretty sure they would not have been racing a AC Coupe but for Shelby.

Yes the Ace was raced successfully in club racing. It was a very different animal than a Cobra was it not?

[LMH]

Your entire paragraph is intended to mislead the uninformed in the direction that AC was a company on verge of collapse and that simply isn't true.
The Ace was a different car, much the same way my Lexus isn't exactly the same as the new Lexus. As I stated, improvements were made throughout the cars production with all parties contributing to those improvements. Do you not read well? I'll write slower next time.
Ace's were involved in racing all over the world, from club racing to professional venues.
And you can be "pretty sure" all you want about the A98 coupe, it means nothing. The fact is AC built it and raced it and SAI didn't even know about it until it was on the track.
Larry

[Jamo]

ladies...

[LMH]

Understood.
Larry

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

Your entire paragraph is intended to mislead the uninformed in the direction that AC was a company on verge of collapse and that simply isn't true.
The Ace was a different car, much the same way my Lexus isn't exactly the same as the new Lexus. As I stated, improvements were made throughout the cars production with all parties contributing to those improvements. Do you not read well? I'll write slower next time.
Ace's were involved in racing all over the world, from club racing to professional venues.
And you can be "pretty sure" all you want about the A98 coupe, it means nothing. The fact is AC built it and raced it and SAI didn't even know about it until it was on the track.
Larry

1. What AC model is the subject of this thread? Tell us. Not misleading at all. Seems like just one person got lost and got a little hissy about it.

2. So who was responsible for determining what and where the improvements should be made and who was responsible for the manufacturing aspect of the improvements. Shelby talked and AC listened and did.

3. As to the AC Coupe ..maybe Shelby didn't know about the AC coupe (whatever that is supposed to prove since no one ever said AC didn't have manufacturing capability) but again I'm pretty sure they knew about his coupe using a race 289 chassis. Also, do you think that AC would have been feverishly preparing their own Coupe if CS had never come along to begin with?

Can you tell us if the AC coupe utilized a 289 race chassis that incorporated all the improvements Shelby had directed previously for the 289?

Also, yes, write slower next time.

BTW did AC use Radford or another subcontractor to form their Coupe body?

[LoBelly]

just passing through...



...back to regular programming

btw - great to get a handle on the history

[Buzz]

I'm not interested in the argumentative aspect of this thread - lots of interesting info and perspective has already been posted, so all that remains now is repetition of unchangeable opinion.

Regarding the AC Coupe though, regardless of its significance from a "what if" point of view, you have to admit she sure was a looker.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by db replicas

,,, Say you buy a 2015 "Genuine Shelby" or "Kirkham" roller, and you take it to Greasy Joe's Garage and pay him to install the motor and tranny. Do you call it a "Greasy Joe's Cobra"?
No, certainly not, you call it a Shelby or Kirkham because that's who "Manufactured" the car,,,

Exactly, that is what Petty's Garage is doing today with Dodge Challengers and Chargers, and they are still Challengers and Chargers when he's done with them.

[LMH]

My problem with you Evan is you skew history and fact to fit your own idea of how things should have been. You know only enough to support your own position and disregard the rest because it doesn't fit. That's fine except when you post your history and the world reads it and takes it as fact. Anyone who doesn't fall in line with your history is immediately attacked. The definition of a bully. You'll argue just for the sake of arguing.
So I'll leave you with this true historical quote about the production of the Cobra.

From the chassis manual that came in every car, including the ones imported to Shelby:

"The A.C. Cobra is designed and built at the A.C. Factory, England..."
"Shelby American Inc. are responsible for the conception of the car, and in America for fitting of the engine, and gearbox, manufactured by Ford Motor Company of America".

And that is how the Cobra came into being!
Larry

[Joe's Garage]

Great info Larry, right there in black & white.
It doesn't get anymore succinct in answering the OP's question.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Buzz

I'm not interested in the argumentative aspect of this thread - lots of interesting info and perspective has already been posted, so all that remains now is repetition of unchangeable opinion.

Regarding the AC Coupe though, regardless of its significance from a "what if" point of view, you have to admit she sure was a looker.

She was a looker for sure.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by LMH

My problem with you Evan is you skew history and fact to fit your own idea of how things should have been. You know only enough to support your own position and disregard the rest because it doesn't fit. That's fine except when you post your history and the world reads it and takes it as fact. Anyone who doesn't fall in line with your history is immediately attacked. The definition of a bully. You'll argue just for the sake of arguing.
So I'll leave you with this true historical quote about the production of the Cobra.

From the chassis manual that came in every car, including the ones imported to Shelby:

"The A.C. Cobra is designed and built at the A.C. Factory, England..."
"Shelby American Inc. are responsible for the conception of the car, and in America for fitting of the engine, and gearbox, manufactured by Ford Motor Company of America".

And that is how the Cobra came into being!
Larry

So who are you quoting from? There is truth in the statement for sure but then there is "the rest of the story" which you and Joe seem to just write off that is critical to the Cobra coming to fruition and it's final configuration.

Just tell us specifically and factually where I went astray. Would love to learn.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by LMH

My problem with you Evan is you skew history and fact to fit your own idea of how things should have been. You know only enough to support your own position and disregard the rest because it doesn't fit.
Larry

I haven't read every word in this thread, but these couple of sentences pretty much sum of Evan. I see nothing has changed.

Then he asks you to cite "specifically and factually", but he can't even cite his own specifics and facts.

[mtrain2000]

LMH sounds like every chebby guy I have ever talked with.

To say that Shelby didn't bring forth the Cobra is to leave out Shinoda, and "Bunkie" Knudsen when discussing the Boss Mustangs.