427 Cobra Engine 1966

[DougD]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I would be interested in documentation that indicates a top oiler 427 was planted in an original Cobra. Could be, but it's news to me. The 428 was used for awhile and then Shelby switched back to 427's (after customer complaints). At any rate the Cobra most of us emulate is the S/C, only 30 or so being built of the approximately 300 total count. S/C, side oiler, stick a fork in it!

"Rumor has it", my favorite saying when it comes to nailing down Cobra history, is that nine of the original cars (later models not early ones) may have had a center oiler.

Excal
I'd suggest revisiting this thread:

how many 427 cars had 427 ci engines

Jog your memory?

Repeating something that is not true enough times makes it fact? Sounds like our current presidential election. I for one would rather believe the esteemed Nedsel, SAAC's 427 Cobra registrar, who ought to know.

Once and for all, not all 427 Cobras had side oilers. Starting with 3101, 427 top/center oilers were produced first, 428s second, and finally sideoilers for the last group. (Not including the comp and S/Cs). "Factory records suggest the first few
33xx cars came with 428's, and then the swap to the 427 side-oiler was made."

"All comp cars and all SC cars had 427 SO
CSX3101 - CSX3199 427 TO
CSX3200 - CSX3299 428 PI
CSX3300 to the End 427 SO"

[Excaliber]

Thanks for that link Doug. From that thread Tom Kirkham says:

All comp cars and all SC cars had 427 SO
CSX3101 - CSX3199 427 TO
CSX3200 - CSX3299 428 PI
CSX3300 to the End 427 SO

I would consider Tom, certainly Nedsel, authorities on the question of which and how many Cobras came with top oilers. It is difficult to nail down the numbers, but one could be lead to believe it is more than 8 or 9. A number which has been stated on different forums for many years.

While the side oiler offers superior main bearing oiling Keith Craft himself has noted the potential failure for the top oiler block to crack at high rpm. Not all top oilers had the cross bolted mains. I'd bet most of them do not in fact. Granted 9000 rpm for a side oiler is lofty rpm indeed and subject to immediate failure at that rpm. The SOHC engine was capable of such rpm in drag racing, but certainly NOT a sustained rpm number!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Thanks for that link Doug. From that thread Tom Kirkham says:



I would consider Tom, certainly Nedsel, authorities on the question of which and how many Cobras came with top oilers. It is difficult to nail down the numbers, but one could be lead to believe it is more than 8 or 9. A number which has been stated on different forums for many years.

While the side oiler offers superior main bearing oiling Keith Craft himself has noted the potential failure for the top oiler block to crack at high rpm. Not all top oilers had the cross bolted mains. I'd bet most of them do not in fact. Granted 9000 rpm for a side oiler is lofty rpm indeed and subject to immediate failure at that rpm. The SOHC engine was capable of such rpm in drag racing, but certainly NOT a sustained rpm number!

The only non-crossbolted 427s I've seen was a couple odd ball irrigation motors that surfaced a few years ago over on fordFE.com. Has anyone else seen a non-crossbolted 427 FE??

[Don]

The narrative in the book mentioned below, from the author's ,George Reid ,viewpoint includes detail comments and pictures on all the BB regarding reliability, casting etc, Too lengthy to type , some very brief excerpts regarding 427:

" Undoubtedly the most desirable Ford high performance block going is the 427 because it shares nothing in common with the rest of the " FE " line up. It's high-nickel content gives it extraordinary strength "

" The earliest 427 blocks had the 390 High Performance oiling system. Ford soon learned that at high revs, the 427's # 2,3,4, and 5 main bearings could sometimes become oil starved, resulting quickly in bearing failure-or worse."

".......Ford cast an entirely new FE casting called the Side Oiler block early in 1965 where the mains receive a wealth of oil pressure thanks to oil galleries which fed the mains from the sides of the block "

Only mentioning what the author states, but the book appears to be a resource.

Previous post:

The CarTech publication " High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange " lists 20 Ford numbers from 1963 to 1968 as 427 High Performance including Side Oiler, Industrial and Marine, Chapter 11 page 94, available as a download @ $4.00.

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s..._ID=2933&DID=6

[Excaliber]

Let me reiterate, the 427, top or side oiler, is in fact a very reliable and strong motor! Side oiler is of course superior.

Gessford Machine offers a service to modify a 427 for cross bolt mains for those that did not come with it. I think the first FE to come with factory cross bolts was the 406.

Question: When were the top oiler blocks discontinued, or were they? Perhaps manufacture of the top oiler continued along with the side oiler until the demise of the FE series?

[Don]

Mentioned in the Car Tech book by George Reid:

" Cross-bolting the main caps began with the 406 block mid year 1962 "

[undy]

I think a few of the early 406s were not crossbolted, eventually leading to them being crossbolted until the 427s came into being. The "aftermarket" installation of the crossbolt systems were/are targeted towards towards the 428s and 390s, mostly. To my knowledge the only difference between the side and top oilers was the oiling system, to include block casting variances to allow for the oil galleries. None of the variances included strengthening of the side oiler block over the top oiler though..

Dave

[ng8264723]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me reiterate, the 427, top or side oiler, is in fact a very reliable and strong motor! Side oiler is of course superior.

The above is wrong. Also ALL 427's with the exception of the 2-3 irrigation motors were X-bolted. The blocks have the same strength PERIOD. The oiling issue is only marginally superior. Try this discussion on the FE forum and see how far you get

[Excaliber]

Try this discussion with any of the well known engine builders and see how far you get!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Try this discussion with any of the well known engine builders and see how far you get!

Where do you think all OUR info is coming from? Show me one builder that sez the top oiler's "weaker" that the S/O.

Now... If you loose oil pressure to you bottom end of your top oiler, a rod "welds" itself to the crank and you end up "windowing" the block, that's doesn't make the block weaker. I think you'll find all of the "well known engine builders" statements on top oiler inadequacy is ONLY related to oiling deficiencies..

Barry, Keith, George or Tom (maybe even Pops .. oooh, did I say that? Sorry Brent) can one of you guys chime in and get Excal straight on this??

[Excaliber]

It was Keith Craft that noted right here on CC that the top oiler block has a tendancy to crack at the main journals with high rpm.

...I bet the search function on CC is getting a work over now!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Keithc8

The problem with the 2-bolt block is not the fact that it is 2 bolt but the way ford designed the main webbing. The blocks have the oil hole from the camshaft to the mains right down the middle of the block. This is weak erea of the block. The weight of the rotating assembley and the rpms are the most important thing hear. The blocks try to split and do split down the number 2 and 4 mains which causes loss of oil pressure and bearing loss. You should have no problems with what you are doing. Like I said before we have seen these blocks split at 550 to 600 HP with rpm range in the 7000 range, these have been drag engines that do nothing but turn this rpm time and time again. Use the 2 bolts block with main studs and balance everyhting good and you will have no problems. Keith

Excal, maybe falling on my own sword on this one ... but... if the top oiler's oil galleries are the same as the non-crossbolted FEs then that oil gallery (as Keith said) would be a weak spot, as you said ... making the T/O block inherently "weaker" than the S/O block.

If I'm making the correct correlation here then, according to Keith, I'm wrong and you're right.

Dave

humble pie and search button King..

[Don]

I have used as a reference for replies, not having any ( none ) personal expertise, the book published by CarTech and written by George Reid, Los Angeles CA in 1998: High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange 221-CI to 460 CI

George's background is not indicated. In the Acknowledgment Section , George mentions the following as having provided assistance with the publication:

* Jeff Sneathen: SEMO Classic Mustang
* Sneathen Enterprises, Cape Girardeau,Missouri

" Each ( above ) of these gentleman allowed me access to one of the most extensive collections of Ford high-performance parts in the world "

* Andy Leeka, Andy's Performance Enterprises in La Verne CA

" Access to one of the most extensive warehouses of Ford performance parts around "

* Dr John Craft

" a respected Ford and NASCAR journalist and historian , he made his extensive archives available "

Not passing judgement either pro or con on the creditability of the publication, but it does appear to be one , of many, resources for detail information and history on Ford SB and BB engines. A number of the points mentioned in this Thread are included and explained in the narrative which accompanies the numerous data charts, graphics and pictures.

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/w...6&WebPage_ID=4

If the above link does not work, Car Tech has a search function by book title, which is also available by Chapter @ $4.00 per download. Big Blocks have 10 chapters , from page 80 to page 146. I bought my book at Amazon.

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/h...?CID=2&DS_ID=2

[1985 CCX]

Enjoy the car!

Replicas are worth the sum of their parts and should never be purchased as an investment. A SO is a great part of your purchase however it will not be of Cammer status anytime soon. SO still sell for 7000 - 20000 on average and probably don't hold a ton of investment potential.

Don't save the miles for the next owner, have fun driving!

[Excaliber]

KC did not specify why the top oiler block is subject to cracking at high rpm, which I believe was in the 6000-6500 range. I would certainly welcome more information on the subject. I have no ax to grind either way. FE's are a fascinating subject!

Is it the center oil galley? Were the top oilers cast with a slightly different compound than the side oilers? There doesn't appear to be any difference in webbing of the lower crank area. So, what gives (pun intended)?

Perhaps it was a referrence to the "2 or 3" irrigation blocks...

[ng8264723]

He is talking about main bearing walking and inturn block splitting. The 427 SO's and TO'S have the same damn holes from the cam to the mains. The side oiler has an addn feed to the main from the side. They otherwise have the same oiling. You really have to read (excaliber) before you post. Nevermind the search function. Read Steve Christ's book and learn about the engine. Don't take someone else's word for it. In this case people misunderstood what KC meant anyway. He said a 2 bolt block doesn;t crack when studs are added. A 427 is a 4 bolt block

[Excaliber]

Wasn't me who said WHY the top oiler block had a tendency to crack, you really need to READ what was posted before you shoot your mouth off.

KC's opinion rates as high as anybody on the planet when it comes to FE's.

I'd be interested in seeing the post where KC says what you said he says, got a link?

[ng8264723]

The problem with the 2-bolt block is not the fact that it is 2 bolt but the way ford designed the main webbing. The blocks have the oil hole from the camshaft to the mains right down the middle of the block. This is weak erea of the block[I][/i]

There you go!!!! It's right there. By virtue of the fact that ALL 27's have the same hole from the cam to the main they have that sam weakness!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Use the 2 bolts block with main studs and balance everyhting good and you will have no problems. Keith

From Keith you will have no problems with main studs. Where does he mention a 4 bolted 27 main? It's right there try to understand and reasearch the way the blocks are oiled before you go off again

[Excaliber]

No need to make it 'personal', it's a discussion not an argument (this aint the Lounge after all). As I recall the problem was not a 2 or 4 main bolt design, it was the position of the oil galley itself that was the problem with cracking.

Top Oiler:


Side Oiler, note the oil galley down the center of the block has been moved to the side of the block:

[aks801]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Some of us are still into 'old school', which is fundamentally what the Cobra is all about in the first place!

Amen! When I get mine, it will be all about being the dinosaur that it is.