Pin drive bolts splitting Help Please

[David Kirkham]

Couldn't have done this without the help of CNGreen, Paul F. and Larry Johnson!

Thanks!

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Paul F

David,

I don't think I want to ship an adaptor to you, but using a square piece of sheet metal, it looks like 90 degrees.

Paul,

Using a piece of metal is actually a very good method for checking angles. Take a pen light and shine it behind the metal. Check to see if you can see any light. You can see an astonishingly small sliver of of light--less than 0.001" quite easily.

David

[Paul F]

David,

I backlit it as you suggested and saw no light on the unused holes (there is two sets of 5 holes). On the holes I have used, with it backlit, I can see the distortion at the bottom of the taper where the pin made contact. The taper has been pushed down and is no longer 90 degrees at the contact area. But that's ok. I have the other set of good holes. I'm now wondering if the baseplate of the hub is no longer flat. I'll check that later.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Paul F

David,

I backlit it as you suggested and saw no light on the unused holes (there is two sets of 5 holes). On the holes I have used, with it backlit, I can see the distortion at the bottom of the taper where the pin made contact. The taper has been pushed down and is no longer 90 degrees at the contact area. But that's ok. I have the other set of good holes. I'm now wondering if the baseplate of the hub is no longer flat. I'll check that later.

Yes, all sorts of bad things happen when you have wrong mating parts coming together at such forces.

But, consider the loads. A 1/2 bolt of even dubious heat treat can hold, let's say, 10,000 pounds. That's 5 tons! Now, crank 5 of those bolts on and make it 50,000 pounds! Now, put your hub in a press and press down with 5 tons (or 25 tons) and see what you do. Remember that little lady with stilettos?

Jamo is looking better all the time.

David


ps. Isn't your "other set of good holes" for a different bolt pattern???

[Jamo]

ahem................

[Paul F]

Quoting David: ps. Isn't your "other set of good holes" for a different bolt pattern???

Me: D'oh!

I'd still like to buy 22 pins if you're still selling them.

[Ant]

David,
thanks for your experience, that makes sense, and with the quality of your cars the right metal for each job is so important, as you mention hard can still equate to elasticity.
Will keep an eye on this post, and when suitable I would like some pins made.

My hubs are drilled for 1/2" which could have been 3/8" but I am stuck with that size! Interestingly enough I was looking at some single seater race cars Lola T332 and others they have a thin drive flange and piddly little drive pins transmitting 500bhp through their massive rear tires, but they are quite light, so its how the car is engineered.

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Ant,

Hard does not always equate to brittle. Think of a really high quality steel that is properly heat treated. I once saw a F1 1/2 shaft from a crash that was bent at 90 degrees! It didn't break! It didn't even have a crack. But, that junk "free machining steel," "leaded steel," and other such abominations can be quite soft and the lead inclusions will make it brittle. Perhaps that is why we have seen so many of the threads torn and broken. I would have to do a chem and hardness on the pins, but I don't know if I want to spend the 100 bucks on the test.

As for making you pins, that is no problem.

David

[cdnus]

After reading butz999 post about runout on his adapters I thought I would spend a little time checking mine out.
1st.
I removed 1 nut & checked the angle- 60deg taper(or 120deg total)
still confused on the correct termonology.
The taper was FULLY seated as indicated by the dulling of the entire surface.
The countersunk hole was similarily dulled indicating a correct matching of the nut & adapter angle. (120deg.)

2nd.
Mounted a dial indicator & measured runout @ the outward end of the snout--Hub 1-.003, hub2-.007
Measured the hubs that the adapters are mounted to & they had .003 runout on the mounting face.

3rd.
Measured the pin location by positioning the indicator to measure the outside location of each pin while rotating the hub through 360deg. (hope I have splained that correctly)
Hub 1--4 pins .000-.001, 1 pin +.005
Hub 2--3 pins .000-.001, 1 pin +.005, 1 pin + .007

4th.
Measured with dial verniers the pin location from OD to OD of 2 pins working my way around untill all 5 were measured-- Max variance was approx. .003.

Conclusion:

Vintage makes & supplies a excellent product & is very good dollar value.

My only complaint was the original nuts supplied in 2005 were too soft & the hex stripped very easily. Bob replaced them with a improved version N/C immediately & after making up the tool to install & remove them(mentioned earlier in this thread) I have had NO problems & my car runs very smooth at any speed.

Craig

P.S.
I checked the front only--too lazy to do all 4.

[CNGreen]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Couldn't have done this without the help of CNGreen, Paul F. and Larry Johnson!

Thanks!

David

No, thank YOU David! Any pics of the new pins yet?

[Larry N Johnson]

Originally Posted by cdnus

After reading butz999 post about runout on his adapters I thought I would spend a little time checking mine out. (VINTAGE WHEELS)
1st.
I removed 1 nut & checked the angle- 60deg taper(or 120deg total)
still confused on the correct termonology.
The taper was FULLY seated as indicated by the dulling of the entire surface.
The countersunk hole was similarily dulled indicating a correct matching of the nut & adapter angle. (120deg.)

2nd.
Mounted a dial indicator & measured runout @ the outward end of the snout--Hub 1-.003, hub2-.007
Measured the hubs that the adapters are mounted to & they had .003 runout on the mounting face.

3rd.
Measured the pin location by positioning the indicator to measure the outside location of each pin while rotating the hub through 360deg. (hope I have splained that correctly)
Hub 1--4 pins .000-.001, 1 pin +.005
Hub 2--3 pins .000-.001, 1 pin +.005, 1 pin + .007

4th.
Measured with dial verniers the pin location from OD to OD of 2 pins working my way around untill all 5 were measured-- Max variance was approx. .003.

Conclusion:

Vintage makes & supplies a excellent product & is very good dollar value.

My only complaint was the original nuts supplied in 2005 were too soft & the hex stripped very easily. Bob replaced them with a improved version N/C immediately & after making up the tool to install & remove them(mentioned earlier in this thread) I have had NO problems & my car runs very smooth at any speed.

Craig

P.S.
I checked the front only--too lazy to do all 4.

David Kirkham

Terry Stapley kindly lent his adapter. It can be delivered this morning as promised if you like. Even though the Vintage setup has excellent tolerances, the new Kirkham pins would still be easier to install w confidecnce as the "wrenching" is on the outside rather than inside. Plus the studs would not have to be trimmed.

LNJ

[CNGreen]

Is there any value to me trying to measure the depth of the pin holes in my Trigos?

[Larry N Johnson]

Originally Posted by CNGreen

Is there any value to me trying to measure the depth of the pin holes in my Trigos?

Both a Trigo and Vintage wheel were delivered last week.

[priobe]

Can someone explain why the "Tuner" lug nuts wont work.

Secondly why we can not machine the hub adaptors to the same angle as the pins as Rick mention in the begining of this post.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Jamo

ahem................

We still love you. You just make such a nice object lesson...

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Paul F

I'd still like to buy 22 pins if you're still selling them.

Paul,

The first batch will be coming out today. Pics coming up.

David

[David Kirkham]

Ant,

I'll post some more interesting pics in a bit. The problems these pins face are pretty complex.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by priobe

Can someone explain why the "Tuner" lug nuts wont work.

Secondly why we can not machine the hub adaptors to the same angle as the pins as Rick mention in the begining of this post.

I would have to measure the tuner lugs to make sure what I am about to say is right.

My inclination is they are not made to be concentric--they don't need to be. The axis of the threads may not line up with the axis of the OD of the pins. Tuner lugs are not driving the wheel on the OD of the pin.

The taper of the tuner pin may not match what the taper in the hub adapters is--90 degree in Trigo and 60 degree in Vintage. From the post you can see I measured Trigo pins in the rather strange 76 degree area--not standard from anything we are used to here.

Tuner pins do not hold the OD to any specific tolerance--it can vary widely leading to stuck pins in the wheel holes.

Hope this helps. I am happy to try again if need be.

David

[CNGreen]

Any update today David?

[David Kirkham]

I have some photos that I took earlier today, but I just can't break free to post them. For some reason, we are selling parts like crazy right now.

I will try to post them soon.

David

[David Kirkham]

WOW! What a day. Lots of parts to ship.

Anyone who is following the thread knows the Trigo pins I measured were at 76 degrees. I assumed (very BAD thing to do) they were a standard 82 degree taper and so we made about 100 of them at 82 degrees. When things started to not look right, I busted out the angle gauge and found I was a dummy...and so was someone else. The tapers on the pins were 76 degrees??? WTH (For you non-Utah people, that means "What the Heck." We later found out the Trigo hub adapters have a 90 degree countersink in them. Someone had a little too much weed when they were making thos pins.

So, we had a bunch of bum parts. Concentricity, is critical in this part (along with most parts) so we specially machined the jaws on the lathe to fit a collet chuck. We then chucked the pins up in the collet chuck to make sure they were absolutely straight, and we corrected the taper to 90 degrees. Bummer to machine the parts when they are already hard, but carbide doesn't really care too much. You just have to go a bit slower.