Pin drive bolts splitting Help Please

[Ant]

John,

As you know I have Compomotives from the same supplier as you, they told me there parts are exactly the same as Trigo, so whether they deal with the same supplier as Trigo or source from L Park I am not sure!
There has been a lot of good input into this post and it appears the Trigo pins are too hard, but that of course doesnt account for the incorrect seating taper, and the sharpish end where the taper and threads meet.........!

David in well onto it and I think we are fortunate that he is kind enough to make us the correct parts for the job, especially as some of our cars do some serious track work. I am under the impression he might be out of the office and we are touching base on after 26th January so I can get my pin drives underway.

[jmarsey]

Hey Ant,

I forgot you were running the Comps too. Yes, I got involved way late on this excellent thread and thanks for tipping me off in your last email. I definitely need a set of these. Great that David can help out like this.

Always good to hear from you man!

Talk soon, John

[PaulProe]

I've been following the thread, adding input when appropriate. Thought I was OK but now I wonder.

The wheels I have are alleged to be Trigos. I spoke to Vintage and determined they aren't theirs. The wheels are cast with "Cobra2" on the spoke, the adapters appear to be stud centric, not hub centric. The adapters are a black oxide, not plated. Everything points towards being Trigo but . . .

The pins and adapters both are machined to a 60 degree taper, not the 76-79 that David found. I am estimating the wheels to be around 5 yrs old. I bought them used so I can't verify their source or production date.

Can anyone help me identify the brand? David, if, in fact, they are Trigo's should we be concerned about different tapers on the same brand? I can attest to the 60 degrees.

? ? ?

Paul

[David Kirkham]

Gents,

Just wanted to stop back in a say I will be catching up on all the office work I missed last week.

Yes, we still have pins (I think, but if not, they are like Doritos--we will make more).

I will go through all these posts tomorrow.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by CNGreen

Thank you SO MUCH David for making our cars safer!

I'm just happy I got to show you and the world the crappy parts I was gonna throw on my car!!



BTW What IS the proper torque rating for this part? I assume no locktite?

Proper torque rating for our pins is 80 foot pounds (dry)--the same as a wheel. Locktite is not necessary, but if you do use it, I'd use blue and NOT use RED! Unless you like saying naughty words if you ever have to take them off!

I would also recommend using anti seize on the tapered face (not on the threads). If you want to use anti-seize on the threads, then I'd reduce the torque to 60 foot pounds.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by 427PMS

Daivid ,
I am looking for a set of your pins for the Trigos , I sent you a IM

Thanks Chris

Chris,

Did your pins make it out? I was out of the office all last week so I am not really sure what happened with the mice!

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by cdnus

David
After viewing the photos of the finished taper end it looked familiar, so I measured the same ends of the vintage nuts that I am now using.
The end has been machined off flat & remains .040 wide after the inside (thread) has been chamfered @ (looks like 90deg.) to a face width of approx .060. All edges are nicely finished.
So it would appear whoever made these up took the design under serious consideration as have you.
The only shortcoming is the internal hex, which can present a problem on installation & removal if one is not very carefull.

Craig

Craig,

If you still want some shorter ones for the Vintage wheels, just let me know. We have some more in the mill right now.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by jmarsey

I am running the Compomotives on the jbl. I split one years ago, replaced it and remembered thinking the design was not very forgiving. They are very easy to split if not careful. The car is due for new rotors so I’ll be disturbing these pins. Would love to replace them David.

Paul, let me know if you get specs from Compomotive, otherwise I know I have that old split one here somewhere to measure. Just have to find it.

Thanks David and so cool you are helping out here. Amazing thread.

Talk soon, John

John,

Thanks for the kind words. I am sure there are LOTS of things out there where you guys know WAY more than I will ever know. Let me know if we can help in any way.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by jmarsey

Hi David,

Don't know if you got my PM but wondering if your pins are still available, or did I miss the boat?

Hope you can still help me out.

Thanks, John

Still available; just made another batch today!

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Ant

John,

As you know I have Compomotives from the same supplier as you, they told me there parts are exactly the same as Trigo, so whether they deal with the same supplier as Trigo or source from L Park I am not sure!
There has been a lot of good input into this post and it appears the Trigo pins are too hard, but that of course doesnt account for the incorrect seating taper, and the sharpish end where the taper and threads meet.........!

David in well onto it and I think we are fortunate that he is kind enough to make us the correct parts for the job, especially as some of our cars do some serious track work. I am under the impression he might be out of the office and we are touching base on after 26th January so I can get my pin drives underway.

Thanks for the nice phone call. One day I will have to visit New Zealand. I will certainly have to visit the places where the Lord of the Rings was shot.

Thanks for the kind words on the pins. We are happy to help out any way we can.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

I've been following the thread, adding input when appropriate. Thought I was OK but now I wonder.

The wheels I have are alleged to be Trigos. I spoke to Vintage and determined they aren't theirs. The wheels are cast with "Cobra2" on the spoke, the adapters appear to be stud centric, not hub centric. The adapters are a black oxide, not plated. Everything points towards being Trigo but . . .

The pins and adapters both are machined to a 60 degree taper, not the 76-79 that David found. I am estimating the wheels to be around 5 yrs old. I bought them used so I can't verify their source or production date.

Can anyone help me identify the brand? David, if, in fact, they are Trigo's should we be concerned about different tapers on the same brand? I can attest to the 60 degrees.

? ? ?

Paul

Paul,

You will certainly have to run 60 degree pins with 60 degree hub adapters. Alternatively, you can take your 60 degree hub adapters and have them machined to 90 degrees relatively easily. An easier way yet it to just tell me you want 60 degree pins and we will make them for you. But, from all I have seen, I would be careful and make sure your hubs are indeed 60 degrees. If you have any doubt, I'd be happy to check them for you.

David

[jmarsey]

Thanks David, I'll give you a call.

Talk soon, John

[Bob Lacey]

Bob Vintage Wheels here.
There seems to be some confusion as to adapter,spinners,drive pin specifications from different vendors.
It is important that the wheels,adapters and spinners are compatible for safety reasons

I have not read all of the posts on this thread so I will apologize in advance for any duplications.
As I cannot speak for other manufacturers of pin drive set ups I will confirm the specification of current (since fall 2004) Vintage wheels products.

1)drive pins
material forged steel, zinc plated
overall length 22.0mm 0.866 in
outside diameter 19.4mm 0.763 in
taper angle 60 degrees
12 mm Allen socket required for torquing ,medium strength thread lock to be used on final assembly
Torque settings
1/2 x 20 thread 85 ft lb
12 x1.5mm and 7/16 x 20 threads 80 ft lb
(the very first vintage pins had a 90 degree taper angle which was changed in 2004 together with adapters to be compatible with other manufacturers.)
Drive pins with an internal hex in some cases require the use of shorter wheel studs , this does ensure that the wheel stud does protrude through the pin and bottom out in the wheel pin hole which is an important safety factor , drive pins with an external hex can use longer studs (some stock studs will still be too long and will bottom out in the wheel pin holes)
In early 2005 a drive pin vendor supplied us and others with a batch of drive pins (with the 60 degree taper )which were over hardened and we subsequently contacted customers who had been supplied with these pins and exchanged them for the forged ones.
If there are any customers for some reason still have any problems with drive pins please contact us for a replacement set

2)Adapters -
material forged steel ,zinc plated
The standard vintage adapter has same external dimensions as other pin drive set ups for interchangeability.
Vintage adapters are both hub centric and stud centric , either is fine - the advantage of both stud and hub is that if a spindle hub has been re drilled to a different bolt pattern the Vintage adapter confirms the accuracy of the re drill , also the loading is shared by the studs and the hub center cone.
Stock adapter internal bore is 2.75 inches + clearance to index on pre 94 Ford hub cones then are machined for other applications according to specs provided by customer such as SN95 ,Jag ,chevy.
Hub rings are available for hub cones of less than 2.75 inches
We also manufacture custom length adapters for non standard application ,
We now upgrade all of our adapters to "anti theft" which also a ensures a spinner cannot come off if not tightened correctly for that extra 'peace of mind'

3)Spinners
material - forged aluminum polished to show standard
face angle 60 degrees
8 threads per inch
one ear drilled for safety wire

4)Wheels - manufactured in permanent steel dies with ISO certification.
Compatability
If you already have adapters or an existing pin drive set up and are looking for extra wheels.
Vintage HA15 HA17 and FA18 will in most cases fit directly on to non vintage adapters eg Trigo,SPF,CAV - however drive pins will have to be checked for OD and length. (This is because Vintage have some backspacing options eg HA15 inch has backspacing of 3.6 or 4.0 inches to fine tune the wheel position in relation to the fenders)
Vintage BR15 and BR17 will also usually work on non Vintage adapters except for some backspacing options which require longer or shorter adapters - available exclusively from Vintage.
We can also drill wheels to suit other pin diameters.

As a general rule if mixing components from different vendors all components must be checked by a
competent mechanic to ensure compatability.
You can also call us for technical support on 1 888 720 0459 and for full info on pin drive installation see the 'fitment' section on our web site www.vintagewheelsus.com

Thank you for reading this ,sorry it was so long -the subject could not be addressed in a few lines!
I hope this has clarified some of the confusion out there
Bob Lacey

[cdnus]

David,
Thanks for the offer, but I think I am going to pass for now.
As much as I would like to have something with the Kirkham name on my car, the Vintage nuts I have seem to be doing the job for now & the Canadian dollar is in the toilet.
If I have any problems in the future I will definitely be in touch.

Thanks for all your help in solving a serious safety concern.

Craig

[Larry N Johnson]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Paul,

You will certainly have to run 60 degree pins with 60 degree hub adapters. Alternatively, you can take your 60 degree hub adapters and have them machined to 90 degrees relatively easily. An easier way yet it to just tell me you want 60 degree pins and we will make them for you. But, from all I have seen, I would be careful and make sure your hubs are indeed 60 degrees. If you have any doubt, I'd be happy to check them for you.

David

One small detail

It appears that Trigo switched to 60 degree bevel around 2003 or 4 possibly. So be careful to measure your bevel. Kirkham may have to make both 60 degree and 90 degree to satisfy the market. My info source is very reliable, plus PaulProe said

The pins and adapters both are machined to a 60 degree taper, not the 76-79 that David found. I am estimating the wheels to be around 5 yrs old. I bought them used so I can't verify their source or production date.

Bob Lacey,
Your definitive post is very helpful; thank you.

Regards and Happy Pin Driving to all!

LNJ

[krausewich]

Has anyone used the Team 3 adapters and wing sets with Vintage or Trigo wheels ?? They offer these items, but no drive pins... Great lookin product, helluva price, but nothing to hold it on with. Has kept me from buying... til now. I wonder how they fit with mentioned wheels, and what their taper angles are?? Gonna need me a set of pins ! David, perhaps you
could become a supplier for these guys...

Mike.

PS. David, thank you for delivering such a high class personalized solution!

[LMH]

Originally Posted by krausewich

Has anyone used the Team 3 adapters and wing sets with Vintage or Trigo wheels ?? They offer these items, but no drive pins... Great lookin product, helluva price, but nothing to hold it on with. Has kept me from buying... til now. I wonder how they fit with mentioned wheels, and what their taper angles are?? Gonna need me a set of pins ! David, perhaps you
could become a supplier for these guys...

Mike.

PS. David, thank you for delivering such a high class personalized solution!

I have a set of Team 3 adapters but found that the stud holes were not machined close enough to fit my Trigo wheels (once I got that point in my build). The pins won't line up, even with Trigo's alignment ring. The center hole is also not the same size as Trigo adapters, so if you want center caps you'll have to make your own.

To be fair, mine are a few years old and maybe he has made changes to them since. That I don't know.

So I'll sell you mine real cheap!
Larry

[Ant]

The torque settings I take as a guide and wind up until they are snug and tight, I would use blue loctite as the red is too severe in my opinion.
As mentioned earlier in post make sure there isnt a fitment problem.

[TButtrick]

Let this thread go. It was referenced from a current thread here: