Pin drive bolts splitting Help Please

[priobe]

Hello,

I took the Cobra out for a drive and noticed that there was a funny feeling in the rear. I turned around and pulled the tire and noticed 3 of the 5 pins drive bolt were loose.

I tried torquing the pins to 80 lbs and one of them split.

Am I torquing these things too much or are they just cheap.

These things are not cheap in price and I expect them to not split.

What are you guys using for pins and where are you getting them. I had to repurchase these from (I believe ) Trigo because the ones that came with my PS Engineering had slight splits in them.

[Cobrabill]

Something else is going on.I've never had a problem with any of Phil's work.You need to get to the bottom of this before you drive the car again(duh).

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

Am I torquing these things too much or are they just cheap.

80 ft/lbs for the drive pins is too much. The specs for my drive pins are 35 ft/lbs with RED Locktite.

[priobe]

ok 35 lbs ( I guess I over tighten them)

red locktite is locker , blue is not as strong

Are you sure it should be red?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

Are you sure it should be red?

As sure as I am of the Baltimore Catechism.

[Blas]

I believe that Trigo suggests 60 lbs for the torque spec on their wheel pins. And I don't think any Loctite is recommended by Trigo...Are yours the Trigo's pins that have an internal hex or the internal star? The star in the latest version. I know that overtightning them will destroy them - so if they cracked I'd bet that's what happened. . Proceed with caution here...a little research is in order I think. Are the pins snug in the wheels? (correct diameters) Did you replace them all with Trigo pins ar just a few on each wheel? Are the fronts also coming loose? Lets see what the CC braintrust knows. There is a lot of experiance here...
Edit: Vintage Wheels may indeed suggest blue loctite...check it out.

[strictlypersonl]

I think that priobe has the 5-pin setup, where the "pins" are doing double-duty as lug nuts for the adapter. They have an internal hex on the outside, with a thread on the inside that engages the stud. Since the wall thickness is minimal, they are prone to cracking if overtorqued. Sometimes it's necessary to trim the hub stud so that you get complete engagement of the hex key.

Some of the early Vintage wheel lug nuts split too (since fixed with better material).

80 lbft seems a bit high anyway, and is probably not necessary when you use Locktite, but I would get a final answer from Trigo as to the torque.

[Blas]

The newer Trigo "star" internals allows for a thicker wall on the pin.

[jmimac351]

The instructions I got with my 15" Vintage Wheels knockoffs said 85ft/lb for the pins with blue thread locker.

Check here: http://www.vintagewheelsus.com/tech.html

I notice it says on the site to use "high strength thread locker". I used the blue because I guess I think I know better although I could have sworn it said blue. Red seems a little much for that size along with 85ft/lb torque.

[Rick Parker]

A few years ago this topic was heavily discussed. The (5) 1/2" threaded studs (I used 6) themselves are specified to be tightened to 80-85 ft lbs of torque when used in (Ford OEM applications). Tell that to the Monkeys with an impact wrench at the tire shops. My personal opinion after dealing with the possibility of this is that the "sleeve nuts" are not made of a hardened material as are normal OEM lug nuts. This often leads to galling of the tapered face as it is tightened. When this happens more torque is required to achieve the same clamping force and the sleeves deform or split. Verify that the angles on the nuts and the adapters are the same. It is also possible that the stud hole seats on the adapters are machined at 45 degrees and the nuts are 60 degrees, thus being mismatched (not good) and will cause the described problem.
Two things should be done to help eliminate this. As previously mentioned by "strictlypersonl", calculate what the installed length of the stud should be to achieve full thread engagement, leaving full depth for the internal hex wrench. Then and this is MY OWN OPINION use anti sieze on the threads and tapered mating face of the sleeve nut. I was then able to achieve the desired torque repeatedly without any damage to the nuts.

[patrickt]

Bob hates it when I rip something from the ERA manual, so I always apologize profusely. I'm posting this mostly for the info on excessive heating of the pins.

[1985 CCX]

I use Vintage Wheels and have never had a problem. I did not use locktite either, after a season or two you will need to replace the pins if removed as they will be beat up upon removal. They do not just come off they require elbow grease and a few skinned knuckles.

35-45 lbs should suffice as they just don't come apart even if loose. Think about it, they need to come loose inside a fitting which in turn is snugged to the unit via the wingnut. Not likely.

[jwd]

Vintage Wheels recommends 80 - 85 lbs. AND high strength thread locker.

Jim

[Blas]

Right from the CC "Forums" "Vintage Wheels" area:
www.vintagewheelsus.com/fitting-instructions-KO-08.doc

[priobe]

Vintage Wheel uses a different type of pin. They will not work with the PS engineering wheel.

The pins used on Trigo are compatiable with PS Engineering.

The Pins that split are the newer Pins with the Torque (star) design

[cdnus]

After damaging many Vintage pin drive nuts on installation no matter how carefull I was, I decided there had to be a better way.
My solution was to machine a steel sleeve (blind hole )to slip snuggly over the nut the full length & on the external end (solid) bore a hole just large enough to allow the hex wrench to slip through & into the nut.
It is imprtant to keep the wall thickness as heavy as possible & the guide hole reasonably long for the best support.
With this little tool I have been able to install & remove my adapters with never seize & 80ft. lbs. many times with out any damage & my wheels slip on & off easily.
Simply, what it does is support the O/D of the nut while helping to keep the hex wrench in line, therefore not allowing the wrench to strip the hex & damage the O/D of the nut.
Works for me, hope this helps,

Craig

[David Kirkham]

I am not sure I understood everyone here on this thread, so I will apologize in advance. No offense is intended to anyone.

If you have to change your pins after 1 or 2 seasons, then I think your pins are WAY too soft. I don't think there is any way a properly hardened pin should have any problems no matter what monkey puts on the rim. The aluminum rim is simply too soft. Frankly, I have NEVER seen a drive pin wear out. (I have seen several broken ones, but that was from crashes).

We used to torque our drive pins (3/8" thread--original size) to 35 foot/pounds. You can (and should) tighten 1/2" threads significantly higher. Now that we mill our drive pins directly into the hub, we don't worry about Locktite or torquing them any more

As for the pins, I would recommend a material that can safely be hardened to Rockwell C 40-45. That means 4140 chromoly or something like that THAT HAS BEEN PROPERLY HEAT TREATED! I hate machining 4140 and the like so the last batch of pins I made, I carved out of 17-4 stainless. Nice and bullet proof.

As for what Trigo is doing right now...can't say. I don't know. I do know I would clean the surfaces really well and use red Locktite, however. I would ask them what they are making them from. It would be interesting to find out. I am not sure what you all mean by "splitting." Though I must say, it doesn't sound good.

David

[patrickt]

35 and red, I tried to tell 'em....

[strictlypersonl]

Unfortunately both David and Pat are referring to "real" 6-pin drive wheels where the pin is only 1/2" diameter (and ours is on a 3/8" stud). Yes. That design is torqued to only 35 lbft.

But what the rest of us are talking about is the 5-pin system that uses an adapter that's bolted on with special nuts that do double duty also as the drive pins.

Small picture from the Vintage Wheel site, but maybe you can get the idea.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by strictlypersonl

Small picture from the Vintage Wheel site, but maybe you can get the idea.

Are you sure that's not from a plastic "Hot Wheels" car?