Don't bother calling Comp CAMs Tech

[blykins]

Rick, I got out of the Cobra business about 2 years ago. This is for a Fox Mustang.

That hp figure was the first pull out of the gate....we were having Mallory distributor problems, so I didn't get much testing done. We picked up about 20 hp with some timing/carb changes, but the distributor was giving me fits on the top end.

[Gaz64]

Brent,

Beg to differ on the lifter/cam solid vs hydraulic theory.

Years ago people used to convert their hydraulic lifters to solid.

Running solid lifters on a hydraulic lobe gives no quieting ramps since the base circle on a hydraulic cam is a true circle right up to the opening ramp and down again from the closing ramp.

This gives very noisy operation.

A solid cams' base circle has it's clearance opposite the lobe nose and is gradually taken up to zero before the opening ramp.

[blykins]

Gaz,

It is very much possible, although not a perfect scenario. You have to run a very tight lash, where cold lash is almost at 0, or you get the behavior that you talked about. You are right about a solid cam's closing ramps, used to keep from slamming the lifter back down on the lobe.

I wouldn't say lots of guys do it, but it is done more than you think, and my cam grinder even offered it as a suggestion when I was losing control of the valvetrain on a hydraulic roller motor.

There is a tight window for operation: too much lash and you break things in a hurry.....too little lash and you may hang the valves open when the engine is cold.

However, you can run a solid lifter on a hydraulic cam, but not vice versa.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by blykins

David,

You can run solid lifters on a hydraulic cam, but you can't run hydraulic lifters on a solid cam. The ramps are too steep and you would end up losing control of the valve train.

If you look at a hydraulic roller camshaft, there is a big difference between durations at seat and durations at .050"....usually around 50-60°. On a solid roller, you get differences around 30-40° depending on the lobe. The solid roller cam would be lofting the lifters sure as the world. Hydraulic roller lifters are very heavy, and SBF valvetrain isn't the lightest in the world either.

If you want a nice, smooth solid roller grind, you can go to their "street roller" section. The ramps are smoother, so you can get longer life out of your springs and lifters. If you want an extremely aggressive lobe for a race car, you can use their "TK" lobes. However, your springs and lifters will call you names behind your back.

I use Comp Cams quite a bit for street/stock builds, and I also use Mike Jones for a completely custom grind. I am a distributor for him and have used his cams in my own engines. He says that his grinds are 20-30 hp over comparable Comp grinds.

BTW, how much lash are you running?

Brent; my cam is a comp cam, solid roller, the cam card is in the shop some where right now, but the lift is 586 and the duration is 288, same for intake/exhaust, using comp solid roller lifters with the horizontal tie bar (no hold down spider thingy needed).... lash is set cold @ .020 I/E ar per the cam card, so it my spring pressure, all done by the cam card specs... I like the cam, lots of low end grunt and hp peaked at 6,200 rpms on the dyno... both torque and hp curve were very flat thru the rpm range and the 331 made 472 hp and 440 ft lbs of torque, using a 3rd hand set of Edlebrock RPM Performer heads and a Victor Jr. intake with a stock 650 DP Demon carb and a restirctive set of headers (not much choice of headers for a 65 Mustang)... I just find at idle, it's "noisy" under the valve covers......

Now that the motor is out and in pieces (literally, pics later) I'm gonna build a another 331 and was planing a little more cam, keeping everything else pretty much the same..... Probably will go with a hydraulic roller this time if I can get the grind I'm looking for, although I can't really complain about my solid roller, I only pull the valve covers once a year to check the valves and rarely had to adjust them very much. I shift it at 6,000 rpms and have a 7,000 chip in the MSD box.. most road courses I run, I occasionaly see 6,500 rpms on the straight and every now and then run it up to 7,000rpms, but for the most part, you could say my max rpm 95% of the time is 6,500.........
My original thoughts were to re-use my cam, with hydraulic roller lifters, but as you say, it will not work, so I'll probably go with a hydraulic roller cam......

I'm not looking for a ground pounding killer motor, but would like something from 475 up to 500 hp for the new motor....

my old motor has served me well for almost 4 full race seasons, so I can't complain.....

Once I figure out how to ad d pics again, I'll start a new thread with the details of my motor failure and then the folks can analyze the bottom end failure!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[blykins]

David, are you using a factory block? You may be approaching the structural limits of a stock block. They like to split in half when you get up around your power and rpm levels.

If you're wanting to go with a hydraulic roller, keep in mind that you won't be able to spin it up as high as you are now. I personally wouldn't go any higher than 6000-6200 with a hydraulic roller camshaft, but KC and some others are doing it with titanium hardware, lightened lifters, etc.

Also, if your goal is to make more horsepower, you're going to either have to do it with the heads or the cam. If you keep the same heads, you're going to have to add cam, which again would put your peak hp rpm up a little higher....again not a good place for a hydraulic roller to be. However, your bottleneck are your cylinder heads. You would probably pick up a great deal of power by going to a set of AFR's or equivilent. When the heads don't flow, you have to make up for it with cam. A 288° seat duration is HUGE for a 331.....in comparison I used a 286/292 camshaft in my 428 FE....and that cam made the 428 peak at 6500. You have a serious airflow bottleneck.

Solid cams are just noisy...that's why everyone likes the old tickety-tickety sound of the old solid cam 289's and FE's.

Getting back to the block...

If you had a bottom end failure, make sure to have the block magnafluxed really good between the cam and the mains. It's very possible that you could have split the block there, causing a loss in oil pressure...

[undy]

I remember in the early "5.0" days, when blowers were just beginning to be installed on the 302s, there were a lot of split blocks with anything passing to 500 HP mark.. I had 3 friends that fit that mold.

[Dwight]

Late last summer I called Keith Craft and gave them my motor and car spec's. Three days later I had a custom ground KC/Comp Cam on my door step.
Great price, better than the Ebay stores for off the shelf cams.

I suggest you call Keith for cam information and cams if you want a Comp Cam. I would think he has other brands also.

I do live 3 hours from Memphis and the parts business may have been slow for "everyone" last summer.

Dwight

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Brent; it WAS a factory 1971 block (gonna start another thread about that), and I knew up front I was playing with fire using that block, but at the time I had it and couldn't afford an aftermarket block, have since got one....looks like I'll stay with a solid roller cam....

Dwight; I'll be calling Keith in a week or two about a cam and a new rotating assy., I bought my present one from him in 2005....

The thing that pi$$ed me off with the comp cams tech was when I called I gave him ALL my engine specs and what I was doing with the motor and what it was going in and how it would be used and asked what distributor gear they recommended for my application.He told me to consult with the engine builder and use what they recommended, I told him, I WAS the engine builder, he told me they DO NOT RECOMMEND distributor gears to anyone,period,end of story....

I knew a bronze gear would work fine, just a PITA to change it every year. Not only that, the guy had an attitude like he knew everything there was to know about engines and spoke to me like I was a ten year old kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[Rick Parker]

Dave, there are too many variables with distributor gears and cams that they obviously do not want to aasume the liability or be quoted on what IS or IS NOT compatible (with their products or other mfgrs) without knowing first hand what components are being used. One of the issuses with having an open tech line is you become the "Worlds Diagnosis Center" and become the quick place to sole problems for everyones products, and the resouce is there for their customer base in reality. Then the actual customers end up having trouble getting in.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Rick;

I understand what you're saying an agree to an extent,but when you (comp cams) sell a product and then have a tech line to give technical info to your customers, then give me techincal info regarding the product I bought from you....

Same with Ford Racing, when I bought their BOSS 302 block. They advised to use head studs and not head bolts, I said fine, which head studs, give me a part number or size/length,they refused, told me to figure it out myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unles you're a NASCAR or NHRA team, they don't want to talk to you or tell you anything..........

I've bought parts and pieces from other companies that were more than happy to talk to me about their products and offer any help they could, Demon Carbs was one of them, also found MSD to be very helpful when I had a problem............Cobra Automotive is another company that comes to mind, they are quick and more than willing to listen to you and offer advise and support......

I don't expect a tech line/person to solve my problem when I have one, but they should/could offer info regarding their products and if I'm using them properly or not........and they should treat all their customers with just a little bit of respect and not talk down to them.........

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Doug I

Did you find out what parted company on your engine David?

Yep, look at this thread I started for the results of a rod bolt failure.......

http://clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96538

David

[Prof]

Ask for William Hood at Comp Cams.

William Hood

If he is busy leave a message and he WILL call you right back.

He is one of their old-timers; attempted to go out and wrench for himself but came back to Comp Cams when the economy tanked. He is fun, easy to understand, and will do a little "desk dyno" for your motor setup if you ask him very nicely. He has always been within 4 hp of the actual flywheel numbers.

I apologize to you in advance, but I have never had a single problem with Comp Cams. I can't understand what is happening to your interpersonal capabilities at the other end of the phone line.

Try one last time.

Paul