Overheating Issues, Perplexed

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

I think David and Mr0077 have it right. The problem isn't that you added a shroud, it's the size and shape of the shroud that you added that is causing you the problem. Sorry for the rambling, writing is not my forte, hopefully you get the concept of what I am trying to say. Good luck.Doug

Well its definitely part of the more recent problems. In order to keep some process to this, I am only making a couple changes at a time. Here is what I have done (which essentially backs me up one step to before the shroud):

1. Drained all the coolant from the radiator.
2. Removed the 180* hi-flow t-stat and replaced it with the 180* NAPA shown in the upper right of the earlier pic. I actually installed it, then pulled it and added 3 more holes per David's instruction.
3. Filled it up with distilled water only up to the half level mark in the expansion tank.
4. REMOVED THE SHROUD.

I fired it up and it warmed up as usual, though it warmed up a bit quicker this time I assume due to the air pockets in the engine and the 3 extra holes in the t-stat. To make the most of my available time, I didn't wait around and see how hot it got. Once it was at 80C/175F I headed out to the radiator shop. Its only a mile from me so I took a longer route of about 5 miles. The car stayed at 180* the whole trip except at two lights, where each time while sitting it got up to 90C/195*.

The radiator guy tested it for combustion gases in the coolant said there were NONE. Hallelujah, that shi!!y news could have ruined my day and my career as a backyard FE builder completely. He said he couldn't add much else without having the radiator out to test it, but he did say it appeared to him that the radiator was not able to handle the engine heat. But he also said it could be fan or water pump. He agreed the fan apperas to be driving LOTS of air.

So I took it out and ran it for about 10 miles and it never got over 185-190*, except at one redlight where it went up to about 90C/195F. When I pulled back in to the drive I parked it and let it idle. Over the course of the next 4-5 minutes it slowwwwllllyyyy climbed back up to 105C/220F, which is when I decided to start hosing down the radiator to cool it off. That dropped it back to 90C/195F, and I killed it. I will burp it but based on prior burps in the sessions before adding the shroud, I am not optimistic

I did try using a small shop fan in the nose and it didn't seem to matter. I may get a bigger box fan and try it tomorrow.

So that's where we are, right back to where I was when it was suggested I needed a shroud. I agree with the comments that THIS shroud is not designed to solve my problem, its too close tho the back of the radiator, as was proven above.

By the way, I called PRC this morning (they built this radiator.) Out of 130 Hurricanes sold, they have not had anyone come to them with this problem. They suggested water pump or fan flow. Need to get a new IR gun so I can do some spot temp checks on the radiator face for them.

EDIT1>> That gurgling in the radiator was likely because the expansion tank was too full or that hi-flow t-stat. Its not doing that at all now, its flowing normally through the tank at half level.

EDIT2>>>I appreciate the remarks about the timing. I am going to check that over again for the hundredth time tomorrow, and may giver her another 4 degrees base from 20 to 24 just for the hell of it and see what happens.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Good news, your eliminating one thing at a time and seeing some progress........

Check with Edlebrock or Stewart/Warner or any other aftermarket water pump manufacter and see what they advise for pulley sizes and overdrive/underdrive %'s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you'll see the recommend minimum 15% to 25% overdriving the water pump to the crankshaft speed.....Could be your next step....

If you have an extra fan laying around, try mounting on the front and see if it helps, bet it will....


David

[Cobrabill]

El-there is a guy on an FE BB that narrowed things down to pulley sizes as being HIS issue.I'll see if i can dig him up.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Check with Edlebrock or Stewart/Warner or any other aftermarket water pump manufacter and see what they advise for pulley sizes and overdrive/underdrive %'s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you'll see the recommend minimum 15% to 25% overdriving the water pump to the crankshaft speed.....Could be your next step....

If you have an extra fan laying around, try mounting on the front and see if it helps, bet it will....

David

Edelbrock just said their pumps are designed around OEM pulley specs. Was the 427 pulley setup a 1:1 ratio? That's about what I've got, though my water pump pulley may be a 1/4" smaller than the crank pulley. Its definitely not bigger.

I do have the 2300 cfm fan I took off when I added the 3600 cfm. I will rig it up and try it on the front tomorrow.

[Jac Mac]

Been reading this thread, since the 'problem' only occurs while stationary, perhaps a smaller fan on each side to ...PULL air out of the engine compartment are reqd... once underway they could be switched off or the setup would be to hook them up to a switch on the shifter so that they only work in neutral etc.

[DocDirk]

When I spoke with SPAL and Flexalite representatives they discouraged me from mounting pushers along with a puller, saying that the puller fan would interfere with getting significant added benefit from the pusher due to variance in air flow capacities....IDK, I'm installing SPAL's 45 amp 3600cfm monster puller fan to replace my 1900 cfm stock one this week. I have no idea whether it'll help... today I was advised that perhaps if I really want to improve cooling I shouldn't have my transmission and oil coolers in front of the radiator (even though they're finned cylinders, not radiator style). I'll move them and see what happens.

These cars are HOT!

Dirk

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Edelbrock just said their pumps are designed around OEM pulley specs. Was the 427 pulley setup a 1:1 ratio? That's about what I've got, though my water pump pulley may be a 1/4" smaller than the crank pulley. Its definitely not bigger.

I don't know what CS originally put on the cars back in the day....Looking at a factory/OEM mid 80's truck (small block), the crank pulley is 6 3/4 inches in diameter and the water pump pulley is 5 inches in diameter..I would think similar pulley sizes for big block factory engines... I took the measurements from the outer rim of the pulleys, easy way when still in the truck.......as you can see, the water pump is turning much faster than the crank speed....Your set-up is about 1 to 1, slowing down the water pump from a stock/OEM set-up....I've seen crank pulleys up to 7 1/2 inches with water pump pulleys as small as 4 inches, in fact, when doing all my testing, I ended up with a box full of factory pulleys,both for the crank and water pump of varouis sizes, probably have a dozen to 20 pulleys....crank pulleys are for small block engine, not sure if the water pump pulleys would fit a 427, but if they do, your sure welcome to try a smaller pulley if I have one that will fit your motor......

I think you said your crank pulley was about 6"s in diameter, with a 5" diamter water pump pulley, you would be overdriving your water pump by roughly 15%, I think this should be a minimum.....

David

[elmariachi]

I made another 20 mile run tonight and the car ran great just as before the shroud, 82C/180*F on the gauge down the highway, 95C/200*F at the redlights. Of course, if I sat there 5 minutes, it would probably spontaneously combust. There is no way I could drive around town here on a sunny Houston day, so its not acceptable like this.

I do think the additional holes in the t-stat and the straight-water made a difference to the positive. It doesn't heat up as quickly when existing the freeway as it did before, and it didn't vomit anything tonight when I pulled into the garage and shut it off. and I topped up the expansion tank when I left.

Based on all the feedback and the findings today, I am leaning towards either needing dual fans and a different type shroud, a bigger/better radiator, or both to manage the heat at idle. Turns out more Hurricane owners than I realized have battled this issue with FEs and this PRC 2-row radiator. Sounds like most have managed to contain it, but I need more peace of mind than constantly staring at the temp gauge and having to plan my trips around outside temp.

I still want to pursue the pulley issue too, but short of buying everything that comes along on eBay, I am not sure how to explore that option. Any feedback there on dimensions appreciated. One thing is for sure, you REALLY learn a lot about these cars and engines having to face a problem like this.

I had a bad dream last night it got so hot it burned the doors off of the car while idling in the driveway. I am hopeful those dreams give way to dreams of burning up endless miles of Texas blacktop at high speeds with bugs in my teeth.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

I ended up with a box full of factory pulleys,both for the crank and water pump of varouis sizes, probably have a dozen to 20 pulleys....crank pulleys are for small block engine, not sure if the water pump pulleys would fit a 427, but if they do, your sure welcome to try a smaller pulley if I have one that will fit your motor......

I think you said your crank pulley was about 6"s in diameter, with a 5" diamter water pump pulley, you would be overdriving your water pump by roughly 15%, I think this should be a minimum.....

David

David,

I think in my original post I said they were both 6.5". But on second glance today, as best as I can measure, my crank pulley is 6 3/4" and my water pump pulley is either 6 1/2" or 6 9/16ths, can't really get a good dead-on measurement and my large calipers walked off a few months back. Regardless, they are too close to the same diameter to achieve any overdriving. If you have a smaller OEM-style pulley, mine is exactly 2.5" in total depth, front edge to back edge. Shoot me a PM and we'll arrange to get it sent. There is no way this could do anything but help.

[G_Edmonds]

El,
Some factory shrouds fit close like yours with either single or dual fans. A lot had flappers or trap doors that are blown open while going down the road, and kinda sucked closed by the fans at standstill. So some sort of windows might help if you want to use your shroud. It does look good.
-Greg

[DAVID GAGNARD]

David,

I think in my original post I said they were both 6.5". But on second glance today, as best as I can measure, my crank pulley is 6 3/4" and my water pump pulley is either 6 1/2" or 6 9/16ths, can't really get a good dead-on measurement and my large calipers walked off a few months back. Regardless, they are too close to the same diameter to achieve any overdriving. If you have a smaller OEM-style pulley, mine is exactly 2.5" in total depth, front edge to back edge. Shoot me a PM and we'll arrange to get it sent. There is no way this could do anything but help.

I'll check my box of pulleys tomorrow, only question is the spacing of the four mounting holes and diameter of the center hole.......I have not worked on big blocks much,much less 427s.....
BTW: all my pulleys are single groove,old style V-belt....

David

[CHANMADD]

just a quick observation.... the holes that you have in the top plate for the hood hinges look like they will bleed quite a bit of air. I would find some way to make them smaller or fabricate a rubber seal.
john

[brettco]

No shroud and the puller fan with a switch you can run- that shroud is too close. I went through this also.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

BTW: all my pulleys are single groove,old style V-belt.... David

So you mean your pulleys won't let me run A/C later?? Single groove is exactly what I need. Here's some good reference info on compatibility, the water pump pulleys are half way down the page: http://www.mustangtek.com/pulley/Pulley.html

Thanks!

Originally Posted by CHANMADD

just a quick observation.... the holes that you have in the top plate for the hood hinges look like they will bleed quite a bit of air. I would find some way to make them smaller or fabricate a rubber seal.
john

Hi John,

The hinge slots would be a factor if it were overheating at speed, but they are not an issue at idle, as far as I can tell. I taped them up a week ago when I started trying to figure this out and it didn't matter.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

So you mean your pulleys won't let me run A/C later?? Single groove is exactly what I need. Here's some good reference info on compatibility, the water pump pulleys are half way down the page: http://www.mustangtek.com/pulley/Pulley.html

Thanks!

I did a quick google search and from what I can tell, the 4 mounting holes and the center hole should be the same for a small block Ford up to the 427s, that's the good news.....Only thing is the pulley depth that varies and yours is 2.5 inches....

I'll go thru my pulleys tomorrow and see what I have with the 2.5 inch depth and see what diameter I have and let you know....I got a bunch of them, so hopefully, there will be one in the pile that fits your size........

David

[elmariachi]

Thanks for all the help tonight guys. Dirk, if you would, please post the results from adding that SPAL fan.

Thanks,

Jim

[vettestr]

She heated up at idle but good at hi-way speed. Too help locate a W/P pulley check out any 70 thru mid 80's short style Chebbie pulley, those with Air Cond. had smaller diameters. Most aftermarket pumps have multiple bolt patterns so mounting will not be an issue. I think a 1970 Camero with AC should work fine. A larger crank pulley?
OH ya whats your timing at? lol.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by vettestr

She heated up at idle but good at hi-way speed. Too help locate a W/P pulley check out any 70 thru mid 80's short style Chebbie pulley, those with Air Cond. had smaller diameters. Most aftermarket pumps have multiple bolt patterns so mounting will not be an issue. I think a 1970 Camero with AC should work fine. A larger crank pulley?
OH ya whats your timing at? lol.

"Thou shalt not bolt a Chevy part to an FE...."

20* base plus 18*, 38* total. MSD 8594 mechanical. Advance starts at 1200 and all in by 3000.

[vettestr]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

"Thou shalt not bolt a Chevy part to an FE...."

20* base plus 18*, 38* total. MSD 8594 mechanical. Advance starts at 1200 and all in by 3000.

Well after the insanity you can still chuckle a little so life is good. Keep taking your medications, ....... immunosuppressives I mean to protect the rest of the Tupperware.

I hope you are in the home stretch with your cooling issues, keep us posted.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

El;

This is what I have on hand.........

4 or 5 Ford water pump pulleys,all 6" diameter (outside to outside measurements) and 2 3/4 "tall"...single groove,they are all the same pulley, how I ended up with that many is anyone's guess....

Then I "found" another, this one is 5 1/4" diameter,but it is actually a 3 groove pulley, if you were to put it in a lathe and cut the inner most groove off (I've done this a number of times)( the groove closest to the motor) it would be 2 1/2" "tall". the outer most (away from the motor) groove is a small groove, maybe for an emission pump or something like that...You could use it "as is" for testing purposes and then if it helps, modify it or try to find another the same diameter.......

The other pulleys I have are 7" diameter and 2" or less "tall"....that wouldn't help you.......

Let me know what you want to do, I can box up the 3 groove as well as one of the 6" pulleys if you want to expirement with them.....

BTW: checked on my set-up with my Mustang street car,this is what I have;

Griffin aluminum radiator, 26" wide total, 21" wide core,19" tall.
water pump pulley is 5 1/2" diameter
crank pulley is 6 1/2 diameter
running an Auto Zone 180 thermostat with 4 little holes in the flange
Flo-Kool high volume water pump
I'm guessing about 25% anti-freeze and the rest is tap water from the garden hose.
18" diameter electric fan I got from a body shop, it had one broken mounting tab and they were replacing it and gave me the old one, it works perfectly, came off an early to mid 90's GM car, I think maybe a Caddy or big a$$ Buick, curved blades, switched by a manual toggle switch mounted under the edge of the dash out of sight...

My water pump pulley is 2" 'tall' and for reference it came on late 60's/early 70's trucks/cars, mostly with no power steering/power brakes,they are the few that had single groove pulleys, you could possibly find one and "shim" it out to match your crank pulley. The crank pulley, I have no clue what it came off of, too many years ago, but I do remember it was a 3 groove pulley originally and I took it to my cousin's machine shop and in about 5 minutes he made it into a single groove pulley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last year's Forth of July parade lasted about one hour and the outsdie air temp was a tad over 100 degrees, temp of the hot pavement must have been 120 or more....Started out the parade with the fan on to keep it as cool as possible for as long as possible, car ran dead-on 180 degress for about the first 40 minutes, then the temp gauge began slllloooooowwwllllyyyy creeping up, by the time the parade was over, about 20 minutes later it had crept up to 200 degress, which I can live with, less than 2 miles down the highway at 50 mph, temp was back down to 180!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Granted it's not a big block motor (351-W,350hp,iron heads) and it's not in a Cobra (65 Mustang fastback), there's more room under the hood for the hot air to escape in the Mustang than a Cobra and I'm sure a 427 will generate more engine heat than my 351, but it can be done......

During the year or so I "played" with this, I tried 4 different radiators, 3 different thermostats,5, yes,5 electric fans and at least 5 different pulley combo's before getting the car where it's at today....

I wanted it to be able to idle at least 30 minutes while staying under 200 degrees and with the combo I have now, I easily and happily exceeded that.......

Let me know what you want to try and I can send you some pulleys.....or being your in Houston and that's only about 4 hours from me, drive the car on over and we'll change the pulley out here at my house and test it here. I've never worked on a 427 before, although I've seen a bunch of them....

David