Overheating Issues, Perplexed - Page 7

ERA Chas · #**121** (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 04:25 PM

El,
My So acts exactly as yours before your testing: T'stat opens at 180, temps while moving remain 180-190 (6000+ RPM) slowly inching up to 210+ standing still. I once saw 227 waiting at an accident scene a mile from my house. I'm lucky the brass tank held together. This has been the case for 17 years and I've lived with it and driven accordingly.
I have replaced the orig ERA copper/brass with their Griffen ally rad. (10 or so years ago) The most notable effect was that it heated slightly more slowly and cooled much more quickly. I have the EDE HV pump.
I realize now because of your thread, that my March pulleys are probably the cause of both our problems because the WP and crank are almost the same diameter. Actually the WP is larger than the crank. So it's not overdriven.
If I found that were the case I'd probably change the WP pulley, but again I don't parade the car and have no imminent need to do that. I also know Houston is generally much hotter than LI.
I think your biggest improvement (it's all relative) will be the pulley change and no shroud. (I never tried one)
Everything else suggested is either an incremental improvement or none at all.
We're all pulling for ya so keep up your fine work.

mr0077 · #**122** (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 05:24 PM

El, on the pulley issue...when I was putting my motor together I went over to a place on the northeast side of Houston called Best American Core (I think) and got a set of pulleys off a 361 or 391 truck motor (I think they are the same) and used them for dyno work. They must have been a 50% overdrive ratio (driving the water pump faster). Unfortunately I threw them away, but point is, they were cheap and all you want to do is find out if that is part of the problem. BTW, I ended up using some underdrive March pulleys with no overheating problems, so my set-up is of no help in diagnosing yours...keep us posted on the progress!

ERA Chas · #**123** (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 07:17 PM

razerwire · #**124** (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 07:43 PM

Update on previous post, coming back from car show last night I slowed way down when getting close to my house because I don't want to upset neighbors anyway I pulled into garage up on the lift and let the csx car idle for a few min. 80 degree c and reached down and tapped the exhaust pipe with my hand , was not that hot. HPC coating will lower underhood temp. which in turn will help cooling system do its job. If you have not finished your exhaust you may want to look into coating.

DAVID GAGNARD · #**125** (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 08:11 PM

El;

You've tried a whole bunch of things and some have helped and some have not, that's part of the process,been there/done that.....

I think your going about it the right way and I have been going over this in my mind and it's starting to get "personal" with me.

So far, you've done pretty much all the recommend "fix's" cept the pulley and a different fan.......pretty much the same results, so I'm gonna box up that crappy pulley and a fan and send to you to try....

The fan is 1/2 of a factory dual fan set-up off some Mitsubishi car I picked sometime ago at a body shop. The actual blades are 16"s in diameter and the whole thing is about 18"s in square.I cut it in half and used one half on my engine run-in stand, all I have is a small aluminum Griffin radiator (old) on the stand, maybe 24"s wide total. I ran my 331 race motor on it for a total of 3 hours a while back, with the longest continous run time of 1 hour at varouis rpms and it never,never got above 180.......On the race car I have a 17" or 18" electric fan (Spal, I think) but a bigger radiator and it does the job. I think it is a 3600 cfm fan, but the Mitsubishi fan will blow that and at least half that again if not more, it's a freakin hurricane when on, I'm guessing at least 5000 cfms...

It's worth a try and by switching the hot/ground wires, you can make it a puller or pusher....

E-mail me your mailing address at

cda351@bellsouth.net

and I'll get it out to you in the next day or two.....if it works, pay the shipping and it's yours.......
As I said, it's starting to get personal with me and I want to see it fixed as bad as you, been in the same situation before and I know it ain't no fun going for a drive wondering when it'll get hot and always watching the temp gauge!!!!!!!!!!

David

elmariachi · #**126** (**permalink**) 06-09-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

El,My So acts exactly as yours before your testing: T'stat opens at 180, temps while moving remain 180-190 (6000+ RPM) slowly inching up to 210+ standing still. . This has been the case for 17 years and I've lived with it and driven accordingly.

Charles, you bring up a good point. This is not a catastrophic problem here, especially after Patrick having jelped me work out a better level of timing and tuning last week. Its more a matter of me having peace-of-mind that no matter the situation, I am not putting the engine in danger of melting down. Houston is a BRUTALLY hot environment 9-10 months out of the year and I don't want to ever worry unless I have to. As Charles has done, I "could" manage this if I had to. But only after I exhaust all fan/pulley/shroud/radiator options. Besides, I love a good challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

I think your going about it the right way and I have been going over this in my mind and it's starting to get "personal" with me.

David

Well I love the support and sponsorship, but don't lose any sleep over this guys. David, hold off sending anything, I did score the 5.5" water pump pulley. I already had the larger 7" crank pulley so I am going from 6.5" on each to 7"/5.5." That should be a big change. And I have the 2700 cfm SPAL fan that I had on before this 3650 cfm. I am going to install the pulleys tomorrow eve and play with various locations front and back for the spal fan. I also have a HUGE shop fan that I borrowed to set in front of the nose. And I also located a dual puller in a plastic shroud that is supposed to pull 5000 cfm that I can borrow this weekend. Let me try some of these items next and we'll see what happens.

Thanks guys, more to follow.

ERA Chas · #**127** (**permalink**) 06-10-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Charles, you bring up a good point. This is not a catastrophic problem here, especially after Patrick having jelped me work out a better level of timing and tuning last week. Its more a matter of me having peace-of-mind that no matter the situation, I am not putting the engine in danger of melting down. Houston is a BRUTALLY hot environment 9-10 months out of the year and I don't want to ever worry unless I have to. As Charles has done, I "could" manage this if I had to. But only after I exhaust all fan/pulley/shroud/radiator options. Besides, I love a good challenge.

To be clear, I'm not encouraging you to 'suffer through it' as I do. You need to do this in your environment.
I too like to track things down to a satisfactory conclusion.
You go guy!

elmariachi · #**128** (**permalink**) 06-10-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razerwire

HPC coating will lower underhood temp. which in turn will help cooling system do its job. If you have not finished your exhaust you may want to look into coating.

Headers and sidepipes are all ceramic coated. Sidepipes are mild to the touch within 10 minutes of shutdown and cool within 20. IR gun says they are at 175 when idling and headers are at 300.

Jamo · #**129** (**permalink**) 06-10-2009, 11:26 AM

Been reading and watching this thread...

I live in Fresno...we'll match or exceed anything Houston or Florida thinks is hot or humid. I can run the 482 high lift thumper in stop and go in mid-summer with nary a problem. More than a few folks watched at a SAAC in fontana a few years ago while I let the tin can idle for an hour to charge a dead battery...on hot cement after running a full session in July...and it never got past 85C. I run a Spal to pull, and two original style pushers in front from Shelby (which are more show as far as I'm concerned...replacing the air they block). I run 50W racing oil with a cooler, and it barely gets above 120C. Yes, the aluminum block does help...but doesn't account for all that much given its state of tune. The headers were coated two years ago (for looks)...no difference from when they weren't before that. 160F thermostat, Edlebrock water pump, March pulleys.

If you haven't already...run straight water with a bottle of Water Wetter. Using more coolant is going in the wrong direction. Water is the best coolant, and the WW provides all the lubrication you need and makes the water a bit slimey to flow better.

On what basis do I suggest this? Autocrosser for over 30 years...where we haul ass for 1-2 minutes and then idle for 10-15 waiting for the next run, in the summer on hot cement. EVERYONE dumps the coolant and runs straight water, with a bit of WW in the last decade or so when it came out.

My other basis...as a farmer's kid. We always ran straight water in the trucks as we idled them along in the field to pick up grapes, etc.

{Edit...I went back and saw you did the full water replacement. Good, it's just Mustang's suggestion about running 100% coolant kept knawing at me.

}

Other typical precautions, of course...burp and reburp the system to insure there are no air pockets, check the air flow, dump the undersized pulleys and get the thermostat down to 160...get the water flowing sooner (biblically-speaking, heat begats heat), timing, etc.

I know you tried just about all of this. As you yourself have mentioned, it's difficult to only do one thing at a time to see what works. Lots of good stuff on this thread...all of it valid, but heat issues (like electrical) can be tough to resolve at times.

Given everything you've reported on...especially how the temp drops a bit when you give it some gas when it idles...I'd think about a bigger radiator, assuming no flow issues with the passages or pump.

767Jockey · #**130** (**permalink**) 06-10-2009, 12:49 PM

El,
That double puller fan you mentioned sounds promising. While the extra CFM it pulls can't hurt, I am more interested in the additional area of the radiator that it forces into use, much like a big puller with a properly designed shroud would do. I remain convinced that your problem is in the radiator size and shroud design. The problem got worse when you blocked more of the radiator with the faulty shroud. It should get better when you call more of the radiator into proper use. This seems to be the only change you've made that had any documentable difference to the problem. This is certainly the road I would go down. Best of luck.

elmariachi · #**131** (**permalink**) 06-10-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

I live in Fresno...we'll match or exceed anything Houston or Florida thinks is hot or humid.

I think I can win that bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

Other typical precautions, of course...burp and reburp the system to insure there are no air pockets, check the air flow, dump the undersized pulleys and get the thermostat down to 160...get the water flowing sooner (biblically-speaking, heat begats heat), timing, etc.

Given everything you've reported on...especially how the temp drops a bit when you give it some gas when it idles...I'd think about a bigger radiator, assuming no flow issues with the passages or pump.

I tried the 160*, made no difference. The engine will eventually surpass 160 and then 180, so the only purpose the t-stat is providing is to determine the running temp down the road. When I had a 190F in it, it ran 190 down the road. I have a 180 in it now and it runs 180* down the road.

Jamo, I assume you have the Fluidyne in your car? After looking at one in a local car this past weekend, there is no comparison between it and this PRC in my car. Though its 1.5" narrower, the Fluidyne is much thicker in the core and the tanks. So that's my ace in the hole. But I am going to start with the smaller water pump pulley, then play with the fans. I also borrowed a big honkin' shop fan that looks like a Pratt & Whitney radial engine and see what happens when I add it. Probably won't get to do all this until the weekend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

El, It should get better when you call more of the radiator into proper use. This seems to be the only change you've made that had any documentable difference to the problem. This is certainly the road I would go down. Best of luck.

I have no doubt that if I can locate a deep enough shroud that it will make a big difference. The difference in temps between where the fan is drawing air through the fins near the center and out near the corners where there is no draw is 20*F. So if a properly shrouded high cfm fan, coupled with a larger capacity radiator, added to a smaller water pump pulley doesn't do the trick, then I am moving to Colorado. I hate Houston, so I needed a good excuse anyway.

For those that asked, the 3600 cfm Zirgo fan I now have is showing 13.1 volts at the wiring entering the fan motor, versus 13.6 at the back of the alternator at idle.

Jac Mac · #**132** (**permalink**) 06-10-2009, 03:25 PM

Try hooking a couple of portable w/shop extractor fans with ducting into the engine compartment while its idleing, if the additional removal of hot air from up high in the engine compartment is enough to stabilise the temp then you know its airflow. As I mentioned earlier you might need a couple of smaller fans mounted in the wheel/header bays to acheive this. The Daytonas & Flip Top have the ideal situation in this regard, virtually none of their rad heat goes thru engine bay.

Jamo · #**133** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 12:38 AM

elmariachi...correct assumption re the radiator

Thing about a 160...while no differnce going down the road, it'll be cooler when you stop, and it's easier to keep something that's already cool than cooling down something that's hotter (or some such logic). As someone else said...just more of a margin to play with.

I have no additional shrouding than any other tin can (Kirkham)...which is basically none, and it's not really sealed all that well around the radiator.

If the pulley brings no joy...get the radiator swapped. If you need a rationale, compare the cost of the radiator to the cost of the motor and your own kharma being disrupted every time you're stopped in traffic and have to start watching the needle.

Fresno vs. Houston...close, but I can always drag in Bakersfield, which smells like Houston.

RAO-3 · #**134** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 05:32 AM

I'm not an expert by any means but have been reading and learning from this thread. Is it possible that there's some sort of blockage or air pocket in the radiator that may be reducing the flow area? I would think it would be easy enough to check with the IR thermometer.

Just a thought.

-Ray

elmariachi · #**135** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

Thing about a 160...while no differnce going down the road, it'll be cooler when you stop

Okay, I'll definitely buy that. IIRC, when I installed the 160*, I didn't road test it nearly enough. I may need to try that again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

...compare the cost of the radiator to the cost of the motor and your own kharma being disrupted every time you're stopped in traffic and have to start watching the needle.

I am at the end of my build, so I am done trying to rationalize any of these expenses. Its all AMEX $insanity$ at this point.

But as you say, I'll be damned if I am going to come 45 years to then live with a car where I have to be preoccupied with a temp needle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamo

Fresno vs. Houston...close, but I can always drag in Bakersfield, which smells like Houston.

I'll see your Bakersfield and bump you a Port Arthur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAO-3

Is it possible that there's some sort of blockage or air pocket in the radiator that may be reducing the flow area? I would think it would be easy enough to check with the IR thermometer. Just a thought.
-Ray

It is very possible. I removed both hoses and held my hand over the lower exit while filling up the radiator will water. Then I removed my hand and it discharged within a couple seconds. I did this a few times and nothing came out. I also spot checked it with the IR gun and didn't see any abnormally hot spots versus the overall temps. As I mentioned, with the engine idling, the circular area where the fan is drawing is maybe 10* cooler than the rest of the radiator, but there are no other hot spots in the "no fan" zone that I could find. I also placed a lamp behind the radiator and turned out the lights in the garage and looked through the fins. I could not see any fin blockage or any signs of distortion of the tubes. The only other thing I can do to check for blockage is remove it and take it to a shop. And at this point, this radiator is sorta like that girlfriend you suspect probably needs to go: Once she's out, she ain't gettin' back in.

RAO-3 · #**136** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmariachi

It is very possible. I removed both hoses and held my hand over the lower exit while filling up the radiator will water. Then I removed my hand and it discharged within a couple seconds. I did this a few times and nothing came out. I also spot checked it with the IR gun and didn't see any abnormally hot spots versus the overall temps. As I mentioned, with the engine idling, the circular area where the fan is drawing is maybe 10* cooler than the rest of the radiator, but there are no other hot spots in the "no fan" zone that I could find. I also placed a lamp behind the radiator and turned out the lights in the garage and looked through the fins. I could not see any fin blockage or any signs of distortion of the tubes. The only other thing I can do to check for blockage is remove it and take it to a shop. And at this point, this radiator is sorta like that girlfriend you suspect probably needs to go: Once she's out, she ain't gettin' back in.

Maybe try backflushing it to see if anything comes out?

Also did you check the radiator cap, or just try replacing it? Maybe it's not properly controlling the pressure in the system.

-Ray

DocDirk · #**137** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 09:17 AM

El, the megaCFM fan is installed and I drove it for the first time yesterday that way, nothing unusual because it was a balmy 75deg. day. Temp hit and stuck at about 192F. Today we head out for a 1600 mile trek through Arizona so the system should be put to the test and we'll see if doubling the CFM (still shrouded) makes any real difference.

Good luck on your challenge too!

Regards,

Dirk

vettestr · #**138** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 09:26 AM

We are in Phoenix so can relate to a hot summer day. Just a couple of tricks to add to some of the great ones already tried.

Adding an oil cooler does help even if oil is not overheating, add a deflector plate behind the oil cooler so airflow from the cooler goes down and not through the rad. In theory the cooler would seem to block a bit of airflow to the rad. but it helps. The air diverter plate keeps the load off the radiator.

Shroud or no shroud ? On a couple of cars where I questioned the shroud might be blocking hi way air I added shroud mud flaps. I cut a couple 5 inch round holes in the shroud and hung a square flap of rubber fastened only on the top. I thought air flow or pressure at hi way speed would push flapper open. If in stop n go traffic the flap would allow fan to pull flap closed.

elmariachi · #**139** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocDirk

Today we head out for a 1600 mile trek through Arizona so the system should be put to the test and we'll see if doubling the CFM (still shrouded) makes any real difference. Dirk

Post your findings back here. I expect this thread might be of value to future overheaters like us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vettestr

Shroud or no shroud ? On a couple of cars where I questioned the shroud might be blocking hi way air I added shroud mud flaps.

I had a JEGS aluminum shroud we tried but it was too shallow, didn't have highway vents/flaps so it didn't work. Once I am done experimenting with pulleys for water flow and using the shop fan to increase airflow at idle, I will be going with a shrouded fan next and a radiator swap last.

I have three new Stant radiator caps I have tried in varying pressures, no effect on the overall issue. Currently I am running a 16 lb. cap.

rustyBob · #**140** (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 03:49 PM

Sounds like you already know what the problem is..........no heat transfer at idle from the radiator to the air............not all radiators are created equal...........a thicker(3 row)radiator with bigger tanks may just be the cure............