Overheating Issues, Perplexed

[elmariachi]

Well if I was 100% sure I would have just bought a new radiator. But by going through this one step at a time (and asking for advice from those with a lot more Cobra experience than me), I will know that whenever I finally get it solved, its truly solved, and not just covered up.

[DocDirk]

El, we've had a rough day through freeway accidents and highway construction project delays, taking about 5 1/2hr to travel only about 225 miles.

I have a 4 core deep aluminum radiator btw.

The new fan has made a difference. The engine heats up normally to 192 degrees full running temperature and stays put there no matter whether I'm stopped at idle for prolonged periods at a freeway construction zone (today was about 85 deg on the highway I think), or idling through stoplight areas or on the go at 80MPH (flow of traffic in these parts).

Never moved a degree up or down all day. With the prior 1900 CFM fan, once full running temp was reached (about 195 on the highway) it would tolerate stop and go traffic only for about ten minutes before the temp would be 210-215 range.

I still don't know what the limits of the system will show to be if we hit 100deg heat in Arizona but I'll keep you posted.

Off to dinner with my son who's LOVIN' it!

Dirk

[elmariachi]

Thought I'd better give an update here as ERA Chas was bustin' my balls on another thread for working on the white letters on my new Billboards (but that was last night) instead of solving this problem .

I received the smaller 5" pulley from David Gagnard yesterday afternoon(thank you very much.) With a bit of engineering this morning to resolve the proper backspacing I got it mounted. Fired it up as usual in the driveway and let it warm up. Its warm here, 88*F and 65% humidity, feels like 95F. It would normally get up to 180* operating temp in about 5 minutes (that's with the main puller fan already running from cold start.) I'd say it took a couple minutes longer today, maybe because of the smaller water pump pulley.

I already had my the old 2100 cfm fan (which we thought was a 2700 but wasn't) that had been replaced with the 3600 cfm Zirgo, wired up directly to the 1-wire alternator post and ready to go in the nose. After about 12 minutes the car hit 100C/212*F as usual. I stuck the second fan in the nose against the lower right driver's corner where the radiator exit is and switched it on. The temp almost instantly started dropping and within a minute it settled at 195F. I let it idle for 15 minutes and it never went back up. I switched off the pusher fan and it started climbing. Turned it on and it went right back to 195F.

Also worth noting is that before, I could only see maybe a 5-10 degree differential between the passenger upper corner where the coolant enters versus the driver's lower right where it exits. And a couple inches out from the fan center it would typically be just as hot, 200-210 degrees. With both fans running and engine now at 195F, the differential entry to exit corner is 25 degrees. The core temp right at the exit point is 170F. And the very center of the radiator is only 165F. That is MUCH more in line with what should be happening.

I then added the big honking industrial fan into the mix and the temps dropped another 5-7 degrees. At that point I was getting an 82-85C dash gauge reading and a 180F reading with the IR gun on the manifold where the temp sensor screws in. Icicles started to form so I shut it all down.

Not considering the pulley for a minute, it appears I need more fan or at least a correct shroud to make the fan I have more effective. And I could probably sleep better by going ahead and adding the Fluidyne Cobra 3-row radiator regardless of what else I do.

I have just been informed that I must now go buy some patio furniture to celebrate my discovery, so I am going to let it cool and them put my old water pump pulley back on and try again with the second fan so I can see what impact the smaller pulley had. In the meantime, talk amongst yourselves.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Thought I'd better give an update here as ERA Chas was bustin' my balls on another thread for working on the white letters on my new Billboards (but that was last night) instead of solving this problem .

Yeah but I helped with your sissy tire paint technique, didn't I?

After the Honey-do shopping trip I'm glad you're back on the he-man job of hot coolant. Besides, aren't you glad someone is paying attention??

[Jamo]

Progress...muy goodo!

[elmariachi]

So the pulley didn't make much difference, surprisingly. I reverted back to my original pulley and using both my Zirgo puller fan and my old 2100 cfm sitting in the nose as a pusher, she maintained 195-200* at idle, and it is HOT HOT HOT here at 6PM this evening, 93*F and 50% humidity.

So based on a number of recommendations this week from my buddies in West Texas who run high performance V-8s in their offroad rock crawling buggies, I am going with a Ford Taurus SHO fan/shroud combo like this:



Rated at 4500 cfm I can modify to fit my core perfectly and its got a 17" diameter fan and a nice 4" deep shroud. Should do the trick. Thoughts welcomed.

EDIT>>> This is with a medium Moroso restrictor installed. I am going to try the 160F t-stat Jamo recommended again and see how it behaves with the additional fan flow. Probably won't matter idling but might on the road.

[ERA Chas]

El,
Great progress and you're getting to the core of it now. (Pun intended).
Aren't those SHO fans hard to find now? Does Ford still carry them?
And thanks for sharing your hard work.

[undy]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

So the pulley didn't make much difference, surprisingly. I reverted back to my original pulley and using both my Zirgo puller fan and my old 2100 cfm sitting in the nose as a pusher, she maintained 195-200* at idle, and it is HOT HOT HOT here at 6PM this evening, 93*F and 50% humidity.

So based on a number of recommendations this week from my buddies in West Texas who run high performance V-8s in their offroad rock crawling buggies, I am going with a Ford Taurus SHO fan/shroud combo like this:



Rated at 4500 cfm I can modify to fit my core perfectly and its got a 17" diameter fan and a nice 4" deep shroud. Should do the trick. Thoughts welcomed.

EDIT>>> This is with a medium Moroso restrictor installed. I am going to try the 160F t-stat Jamo recommended again and see how it behaves with the additional fan flow. Probably won't matter idling but might on the road.

That SHO fan/shroud combo looks like the real deal. From what's shown it appears to have good adapability potential. I'm always open to more CFM myself. What's the measurements on the shroud? What's it's total depth? If you have year and application that would help. I'm running a "modified" Flex-a-lite 16" shrouded Black Max. That Ford piece would kick it's butt in the air flow arena. BTW ... make sure your wire conductor size will handle the new fan load.

Dave

[PaulProe]

Jim
Have you considered going to a double pass radiator? When I got mine, PRC said it would make a major impact on cooling. Apparently the longer path the coolant makes dissipates much more heat?

You might give them a call and get their comments/opinion

Still a little confused why you're having the problem and the other Hurricane big block guys are getting along OK

Paul

[Garage10]

El
I bought a 1997 taurus fan and its dimensions are 22" Wx 16" Tx 5" deep. DC Controls sells a whole package with the fan and a variable speed controller. But, he is very slow and kind of an a-hole as I ordered one and didn't notice there was a special tab for shipping to canada and therfore didn't pay correctly so he just held onto controller and didn't send it or let me know I had made a mistake. But, it looks like a good product. Hope I get mine soon. I hooked my fan up to battery on high speed it really moves a lot of air. I hear the Lincoln Mark8 fan is bigger and pulls even harder. something like 5500cfm if that would fit your application.
PaulProe
Check out stewart rad site. They don't recommend double pass. But, maybe they are the ones that are wrong ?
Hope this helps.
Brent

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Have you considered going to a double pass radiator? When I got mine, PRC said it would make a major impact on cooling. Apparently the longer path the coolant makes dissipates much more heat? Still a little confused why you're having the problem and the other Hurricane big block guys are getting along OKPaul

I guess I don't know enough about radiators to even know there was such as thing as double pass. I'll call Shawn at PRC tomorrow and visit with him; he wanted to know what I discovered on this anyway. I agree, I don't know why I am having this problem and other Hurricanes have not.

Originally Posted by undy

That SHO fan/shroud combo looks like the real deal. From what's shown it appears to have good adapability potential. I'm always open to more CFM myself. What's the measurements on the shroud?

Shroud is 22x17x5, and based on the pics, it looks like there's room for trimming. When it shows up I'll post pics. The one I bought was used but tested, price was $78 including wires, relays, and shipping.

Originally Posted by Garage10

I bought a 1997 taurus fan and its dimensions are 22" Wx 16" Tx 5" deep. I hear the Lincoln Mark8 fan is bigger and pulls even harder. something like 5500cfm if that would fit your application.

From what I can tell, there are three fans from 1991-1999, the high output Taurus SHO fan, the high output Lincoln fan and the standard V-6 Taurus/Sable fan. You can tell the two high outputs fans from the standard fan as the standard has one corner of the shroud cut at an angle. The other two have the same rectangular shroud, but the SHO fan has small swept blades like a SPAL fan and the Lincoln monster fan has large chopper blades. Do some searching on eBay and you can find Ford and Dorman numbers. I don't know if the aftermarket fans deliver the same cfm so I would be careful there (which is why I bought a used Ford instead.) Guys that are selling these know a lot about them so you can educate yourself pretty well by perusing the auctions. I am also a member of the Pirate 4x4 forum and there are dozens of threads about installing and using these fans there. You have to sign up to search but if you are thinking of doing this, its well worth it. And do a Yahoo search on "Taurus fan install" and you'll see how widely used this fan is.

[DocDirk]

El, I promised I'd give you an update on the response to the installation of the higher CFM fan. It's made a huge difference at speeds under 30-35mph I think. Well so far over 800 miles in four days through California and Arizona, from desert to 7000 feet altitude, from idling at freeway accident scenes in 85-90+ degree asphalt heat to 90MPH running between Barstow and Needles midday, and not a problem yet!

<<<That Barstow to Needles stretch was amazing - even though the speed limit was posted at 60MPH and often at 70MPH ("RADAR ENFORCED" no less), nobody seemed to care - 80 MPH was the "get over into the slow lane you $&^%@$#!!" speed in that stretch. With my setup the left hand flow of traffic was about 3100-3200RPM, ran at 194F the whole way, ram - air effect no doubt. NOW I know for sure I want an AOD someday.>>>

It seems the max CFM fan has made a difference at slow speeds, at idle, and in town stop and go for my setup. I can't imagine why it would help at high speeds though. I did seal the 1/4" wide full vertical spaces on each side between the fan shroud and the radiator body. Next step for me will be shrouding the front end opening to the radiator.

The fan is a SPAL High Output 16" puller - 45AMP draw - not even listed on their website, bought it from A1Electric after Googling SPAL fans.

Whereas previously almost any serious demands on the cooling system resulted in my pulling over when 225F approached, (usually in stop and go traffic) the engine now runs 190-194F 95% of the time. At speed it's naturally cooler on the straightaway at altitude, maybe 185-190, hotter with steady climbing from the desert floor midday into the mountains, reached 205F after about 30 mins of climbing and oil pressure dropped 2# before returning to normal once on the straightaway again.

There's some serious danger of my reducing my Temp and Pressure gauge scans to once a minute LOL...! Four more days and we'll be home, hopefully no news during that time.

Hope you discover the optimal solution for your overheating challenge El!

Regards,

Dirk

[Garage10]

If going with the taurus fan make sure it has three wires indicating a low and high speed setting as well as ground. I believe the 97-98 fans are the higher cfm rated ones.Check my gallery for pics of fan.

[undy]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

From what I can tell, there are three fans from 1991-1999, the high output Taurus SHO fan, the high output Lincoln fan and the standard V-6 Taurus/Sable fan. You can tell the two high outputs fans from the standard fan as the standard has one corner of the shroud cut at an angle. The other two have the same rectangular shroud, but the SHO fan has small swept blades like a SPAL fan and the Lincoln monster fan has large chopper blades. Do some searching on eBay and you can find Ford and Dorman numbers. I don't know if the aftermarket fans deliver the same cfm so I would be careful there (which is why I bought a used Ford instead.) Guys that are selling these know a lot about them so you can educate yourself pretty well by perusing the auctions. I am also a member of the Pirate 4x4 forum and there are dozens of threads about installing and using these fans there. You have to sign up to search but if you are thinking of doing this, its well worth it. And do a Yahoo search on "Taurus fan install" and you'll see how widely used this fan is.

I did some research on this myself on several 4WD boards along with a muscle car and Fox body forum. It appears that the 90 thru 95 3.8 liter Taurus fan is the one to have. In fact, it looks just like the one you're buying? Doing some checking, the V6 SHOs ran a smaller 16" shrouded fan, the same fan as the other lesser output 3.0s. I believe that's the same fan you'd mentioned with the corner cut off. I guess it's a smaller cube, smaller heat load way of thinking. The 3.4L V8 SHO's fan and the 96 up Taurus/Sable was of a different configuration, not a tidy fan/shroud package and not usable in our application. The Lincoln runs a larger 18" shrouded fan. The larger shroud size and the 6 1/2" stand off distance make it unusable, at least for my application. Geez, that 5500 CFM rating would have been the shiz-nit though..

I went and Epay'd a new Taurus 3.8L unit for 80 bucks. For that money it's worth doing some testing/trimming for adaptability and just to see how much air this puppy'll move. I've got an HVAC flow hood at work we use for TAB evaluations. I might just see ho much air it does actually move.

Dave

[elmariachi]

And if you are so inclined, here is a company that supplies a pre-wired harness/relay kit just for this 2-speed fan: Hollister Road

There's a write-up on their site about the fan install.

Nice wiring schematics at the botton of this page.

[undy]

Thanks El, that relay combo looks like just the ticket. Before I start investing in the controls I need to see if I can make this sucker fit. I took some preliminary measurements before I bought the fan. It may or may not fit behind my radiator. It will, at best, take some creative carving on the shroud to get it in there. My core is only 18" wide and the distance from the radiator to the water pump pulley is only 4" as the crow flies.

Was I right on the SHO fan? Where did you get the info that that fan you posted was from a SHO?

Dave

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by undy

Thanks El, that relay combo looks like just the ticket. Before I start investing in the controls I need to see if I can make this sucker fit. I took some preliminary measurements before I bought the fan. It may or may not fit behind my radiator. It will, at best, take some creative carving on the shroud to get it in there. My core is only 18" wide and the distance from the radiator to the water pump pulley is only 4" as the crow flies. Was I right on the SHO fan? Where did you get the info that that fan you posted was from a SHO?Dave

Same for me, I am going to get the fan and make sure all systems are go before I worry about wiring.

The more I read, the more confused I am getting. The SHO fan is supposedly a 16" swept blade with two speeds and was produced in early to mid 90's. According to an email I received from the Seller, the fan I bought is actually a 17" blade with two speeds from a later model Lincoln Continental/MKVIII. But the pic I have looks just like the SHO fan. He also says that there is another Lincoln fan out there that has 18" chopper blades and requires 6" mounting depth, but it blows a whopping 5500 cfm.

So I am not sure about all these fan models, I am just regurgitating what I am learing through reading. No wonder American auto makers are in the toilet, too many discreet part requirements when one or two fans could have served the model whole lineup for a decade.

Here is a link with some good pics and part #s for Ford/Mercury and Lincoln:

http://www.monsterautoparts.com/MERC...ing_fans-1.htm

[CobraEd]

Sounds like you are well on the way to successful cooling. Now you gotta be sure that your alternator can keep up with the 2,500 amp fan


.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Also, I bought this car turn-key minus from a guy that had put 1500 miles on it from new with an all-aluminum 482 KC Pond engine. He says he had zero cooling issues. I am running that same radiator and even using his hoses.

To me, that narrows it down to your engine. What it is in particular, I don't know, but it's not your cooling system. You can improve the cooling system and that may help it compensate but it doesn't address the root of the problem.
I have the same car, same cooling system except I'm running a Windsor motor (I know, big difference) and I can drive my car all day in traffic with 90+ temps. and never go over 185F. The fan will only come on if after a long run, I let it idle for about 5 in the driveway and then the temp. drops right back down.
Like you said, many Hurricane owners run big blocks with no problems. I would be looking for the problem instead of treating the symptoms.

Jim

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by jwd

To me, that narrows it down to your engine. Jim

When the dyno shop did the break-in run and dyno pulls, the engine was plumbed with an electric water pump and a controlled/cooled water supply. After they were done on the dyno they changed the oil, bolted on my new Edelbrock waterpump, and plumbed in a heavy duty racing radiator with a large electric fan. We then ran it for 20 minutes checking for leaks and it never went over 180*F. When I got it home and bolted it into the go-kart, I then put 20+ miles on it running around the subdivision before mounting the body and it never got above 180*F. Then I mounted the body and it started idling hot. No way its the engine.

EDIT>> Every engine will run hot and eventually melt down if its not cooled. By laying a second pusher fan in the nose I can hold the temps to 195, and that's still leaving two full corners of the radiator without direct airflow. So I am not sure at that point I am any different than any other properly cooled Cobra: Cooling system is discharging engine heat and keeping the engine cool enough to operate at idle and roadspeed.