Run and hide little cobra

[jwd]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Just as a point of interest, SBC's can be had at 454 cubic inches and 620 or so HP on pump gas. 427 SBC's in drag trim (13.5:1) at 650HP.

I agree, HOWEVER, 454 CI. small blocks haven't been around very long. Until recently, 383 was the best you could do. I'm new to Fords but I know SBC's and BBC's like the back of my hand so don't try to BS me. Like I said, I've been building them for years.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by jwd

Unless you just graduated from high school this year and your friend was running a stroked, supercharged, nitrous added small block, I'm calling MAJOR BULLSH!T on that story. I've been building SB Chevy's for over 40 years and 600 HP with todays technology is barely possible but to do this years ago is an absolute crock of sh!t.

His SBC was 434 inches, 14:1 CR, and used some weird heads with BBC ports (I'm not a Chevy guy, so don't remember the exact head). I witnessed it make just a tad over 600hp on the engine dyno when it was built. If you don't believe that, maybe you just need to get better at building motors. Hell, Jeff Lawrence was getting 600 hp out of Chevy V6s for Vinny Barone's Super Comp motors.

As for challenging Mr.Bruce, how about this..... Why don't YOU contract him to build a Cheetah that does 215 mph, and prove us all wrong. If one can do it back in the 60s, think of how fast of a Cheetah you can build with today's technology. Gotta be a 300 mph car at least.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

His SBC was 434 inches, 14:1 CR, and used some weird heads with BBC ports (I'm not a Chevy guy, so don't remember the exact head). I witnessed it make just a tad over 600hp on the engine dyno when it was built. If you don't believe that, maybe you just need to get better at building motors. Hell, Jeff Lawrence was getting 600 hp out of Chevy V6s for Vinny Barone's Super Comp motors.

And what year was this? Stroker small blocks to that displacement haven't been around all that long. V-6 SuperComp motors are an equal comparism. Why not include AA/Fuel motors as well.

As to your comment on building motors, you should go back to the Lightning forum where you're well known as the Italian bafoon that can tune a motor to blow up faster than anyone in the world. Your reputation is well known, and laughed at.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by jwd

And what year was this? Stroker small blocks to that displacement haven't been around all that long. V-6 SuperComp motors are an equal comparism. Why not include AA/Fuel motors as well.

As to your comment on building motors, you should go back to the Lightning forum where you're well known as the Italian bafoon that can tune a motor to blow up faster than anyone in the world. Your reputation is well known, and laughed at.

This would have been in the early 90s. Big stroke small blocks have been around plenty long.

As for the Lightning comment, you must be confusing me with some other vendors, since I had the lowest rate of "blown motors" (can count them on one hand in the 10+ years of tuning) among all of my competition. Either that, or you're just reading some over-exaggerated cheerleader for another vendors posts.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me. If you don't want to believe a 600hp small block in the early 90s, that's your problem.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

As for the Lightning comment, you must be confusing me with some other vendors, since I had the lowest rate of "blown motors" (can count them on one hand in the 10+ years of tuning) among all of my competition. Either that, or you're just reading some over-exaggerated cheerleader for another vendors posts.

Nope. Have several friends with Lightnings. Your tuning abilities are well known. He11, after listening to them, I wouldn't let you tune my lawn mower.
I copied this post and sent it to them. I can't wait to hear what they say about the "Fat Italian".

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by jwd

I agree, HOWEVER, 454 CI. small blocks haven't been around very long. Until recently, 383 was the best you could do. I'm new to Fords but I know SBC's and BBC's like the back of my hand so don't try to BS me. Like I said, I've been building them for years.

Lose the attitude ass clown.
Mitchell was casting the World block to handle those strokes in the early 90's and so was Maskin at Dart. Ronnie Shaver and Shafiroff's been building them as long also, amongst others.
Nobody's built or been buying 383's except entry-level circle guys for a decade and clowns with lowered Monte Carlos. Has that been your clientele "for 40 years"?
Really bad form to hammer Sal and I with your self-perceived authority on a light discussion forum. Your memory and manners, probably like your building skills, needs updating. Brent has a sticky thread called "Respect, respect, respect".:
Respect, Respect, Respect!!!
I posted it here certain you wouldn't look for it.
When you wake up, your clothes may be back in style.
No faces.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Lose the attitude ass clown.
Brent has a sticky thread called "Respect, respect, respect".:
[

Then I suppose you should re-read it as well.

I very familiar with the Motown & Warhawk blocks but since Sal was referring to a friend with a "T-Bucket" and nobody has built one of those in the last 30 years, I was assuming he was talking about a small block from Chevrolet since at that time, it was the only source. My mistake. As far as his "tuning abilities", go the the Lightning forum and find out the truth before you start flapping your jaws.

Sorry if I offended anyone, just tired of know-it-alls that have mouths that are faster than their cars and have never actually built anything more than a model car as a child. Like I said before, if your resume' stacks up against mr. bruce, fine. If not, STFU. He has built many cars and motors, unlike the majority here.

[lovehamr]

Enough yamerrin' already! If I got a Cheetah I'd hafta stick a BBF in it!!!

Steve

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by jwd

Sorry if I offended anyone, just tired of know-it-alls that have mouths that are faster than their cars and have never actually built anything more than a model car as a child. Like I said before, if your resume' stacks up against mr. bruce, fine. If not, STFU. He has built many cars and motors, unlike the majority here.

First of all, you were the first "know it all" to stick your two cents in by rudely commenting on my friend's big power small block. Instead of assuming you know it all, and coming of that way, maybe you could have politely asked what his combo was, before coming off like an asshat.

Second of all, I don't believe that anyone here, including myself, was knocking anything that Mr.Bruce does. We are all well aware of his awesome talents and despite sometimes posting brand X vehicles, I think we all look forward to seeing his creations.

There's nothing wrong with questioning a little history that just doesn't make sense. People have done it for decades. We STILL do it when it comes to certain things about Cobras.

Also, I am not sure why you felt the need to personally attack me, but if it makes you feel like more of a man, then I guess you can congradulate yourself.

[computerworks]

To all:

Cut the crap here.... it has no place.

Discuss the cars, have differing opinions, poke some fun...

BUT..keep away from name-calling and the angry part.

thanks
ron
ClubCobra Moderator

[Jamo]

What he said...we're both watching, which makes it 24/7.

[COBRANIP]

Time to change the tenor.... I'm getting an appointment with my Proctologist, er, I mean Optometrist because to me....I LIKE the looks of the Cheetah. And think of how much money you'd save not having to buy a drive shaft!

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by jwd

Nope. Have several friends with Lightnings. Your tuning abilities are well known. He11, after listening to them, I wouldn't let you tune my lawn mower.
I copied this post and sent it to them. I can't wait to hear what they say about the "Fat Italian".

Hate to chime in on this going down in flames thread - but I have a Lightning with a pulley and tune by Sal, specifically because of his reputation on the Lightning and F-150 forums. I think you must have him confused with one of the other tuners - at least one of which I can think of that has such a reputation.

This doesn't sound like the former firm/person your describing in the Lightning community. http://www.f150online.com/forums/lig...-10-years.html

You really need to take a break and lay off the insults.

[John McMahon]

Hey Bruce....

Are ya feeling the love?

Like how yer conversation on this brilliant car turned into a pissing match between a few???

Anyhoo...I guess yer one up on most guys in this thread actually having road raced that thang. Would love to get back to Beaverun at some point. I'd love to take that Cheetah thru turns 5,6,7 there. Laying low this year, we're planning a move to NC in a year or so.

Do you still have that Trans Am Daytona I got you the race tires for? That was a cool ride too.

Hope all is well.

JM

[mr bruce]

Gentlmen, I didn't mean to work everybody up THAT bad, just liven things up around here. NC Johnny, Daytona is turning into a Trans-Am Cheetah, sold off the Daytona body. You CrankyClub ******s aughtta make a day trip over here to BeaveRun for the SAAC convention , I'll whip up a few slabs of ribs and stuf . Heck ,you could carpool, ride over in one truck. Then again I wouldn't want to be stuck in the same space as you pisscutters for a 5 hour ride.

[John McMahon]

Bruce, If I can find the time to go, it would probably be just me and without the 95 Cobra R. Been too busy to even get under the car. Just freeing up time now. I have had the car for over a year now, took it to VIR May '08 and a couple of runs at the road race track at Englishtown, but I need to get to it and make some mods.

Bad enuff yer bribing me with yer world famous ribses. Coax me into coming by dangling that Cheater in my face wit some hot laps at BR.

[DMXF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I will undoubtably regret this but:

600 hp with Webers on a 427 in the 60's "the impossible dream"
Every dyno sheet I have ever seen and I have looked at quite a few show maximum power in the 550 range and that was a 427 Tunnel Port with 15 to 1 pistons with Daytona cam and dual 4 barrels on a single plane manifold. Certainly not a road race set up. The dyno sheets were from the Dearborn engine lab and thus accurate, as compared to other less reliable sources.

How did you get to 2150 for a Cobra with an all aluminum 390 vs a Cobra with a 427 iron block high riser probably more like 2250.

Bruce, it seems whatever evidence anyone provides will not change your mind on things, but I’ll give this a shot. I may not have enough time to get into every detail, but the 600hp number is based on dyno testing, similar engine configurations and analysis. This also ignores the fact that the weber engine will make significantly more mid range torque than any of the Holley setups.

First, the following baseline dyno results from Ford's Engine and Foundry division show the 427 high riser 2x4 in top tune as having generated about 550hp. This work was done during the SOHC development period, as there are other graphs where the red curve was plotted against the various SOHC results for comparison.

Next, these results were duplicated/correlated with modern dyno testing done by the owner of CSX3191. His engine just had a bigger cam (around 270 deg duration) than was available back when the Ford testing was done, so he achieved 558 HP with the C4AE-F 2x4 intake and 569 HP with the taller C3AE-D 2x4 intake. The 58mm weber induction was then installed and tuned and he was ultimately able to achieve 600hp, which was documented in this article:

The cam in my engine is slightly less radical than the one in this testing, mine essentially falling in between the factory grinds SK38427 and SK42390, but with less overlap to minimize weber reversion. However, my engine has other period original power enhancing attributes, like the traditional longitudinal carb mount intake manifold with straighter, shorter more direct ports, shorter velocity stacks and slightly larger chokes, all for more top end tuning and peak HP, factory dry sump, better combustion chamber design of the factory aluminum HR race head, roller cam (used by SA on their top race engines) and original Shelby American works porting (relatively mild). As you may remember, a friend who works for one of the leading F1 teams also modeled my engine on their software, which predicted just over 600hp.

In addition, David Salkowski, who occasionally posts on this forum, has a modern Shelby aluminum engine at a higher state of tune with reproduction Berg 58mm webers and he has many dyno runs showing about 735 HP. David’s engine uses ported Edelbrock heads (ie, more cylinder head flow), a bigger cam and higher compression, but a similar layout intake to mine and the similarity makes sense that mine would probably be within about 100 HP of his. Also, I don't know if you ever met Jim O'Leary, but he was an engine builder at Shelby American in the 60's. He said that they were getting 635 HP out of the tunnel port engines with the IR injection that they were running in the Can Am cars. My heads flow within about 15 cfm of the tunnel ports and Ford's Indy car program in the 60's documented that when they replaced the 58mm webers with the fuel injection they had available at the time the HP didn't change, just fuel economy went up. At some point I may have mine dyno’d, but in the mean time all the evidence is quite overwhelming supporting the 600 HP.

The 2150 lb weight came from the comp car specifications sheet that Shelby American released in ’65. I’ve been a little skeptical of that number, but I’ve been able to come up with a weight more around 2250 lb for my car with the all aluminum works race engine by subtracting individual component weight deltas from the standard street car value (incl magnesium wheel savings, etc), so I figured a few more pounds could be found here or there (remove heater, etc, etc). Either way, it’s in the ballpark.

[mr bruce]

Change my mind about what? I'm not swallowing 215 or 222 in a Cheetah or even 198 in a Cobra at Daytona IN THE 60s. The only number I ever saw in actual print, 1960's print was the 185 at Road America, in the mid 60s, brake/areo/skinny tired/ hp challenged small block Cheetah. I can't find ANY records of a Cobra's, big or smallblock, numbers at that track, INTHE 60s. Today's numbers are a different story, with advanced tires, areo, suspension developement, and on and on. The fastest number accurately timed that I can find for a Cobra, is Gordon Levy's 187 at Pheonix, about 6-7 years ago. Now if you wanna brag, how 'bout i cobble one of my Cheetah bodys on one of our Chevy or Rodek powered Supers we run there .

[DMXF]

mr bruce, I was replying to the other Bruce, aka Cobra #3170.

[CoupedUp]

Would anyone turn down a $6.8m offer for a Cheetah???