Run and hide little cobra

[mr bruce]

since we're "whatiffin", I gots to disagree. Back in the old days of slot cars, and I'm talkin' the big commercial tracks from the 60s, the ones with the verticle highbanks, that run 1 2/4th scale cars, the most popular car was the Cheetah, I don't remember ANY Cobras being run. Now adays all the old timers reconize the Cheetah wheras most people ask if a Cobra is an MG, Vette or Carmen Ghia.

[mr bruce]

http://slotcaremporium.com/default.aspx

[mr bruce]

http://slotblog.net/index.php?showtopic=11266

[DMXF]

Sal makes a good point in that the Cobra was cut short of its full development. I also seem to remember reading that the Cheetah's suffered from poor aerodynamics and suspension design flaws that probably would have limited all out racing success. The only real thing it seems to have going for it is power to weight ratio. That 215mph sounds questionable and I wouldn't believe it unless substantiated by evidence and solid, proven analysis. I'm sure it's a fun car to drive though, especially if the new versions have design improvements to address some of the issues.

[John McMahon]

Well, you could also say the Cheetah's development was cut short too.

The second aluminum bodied Cheetah was sent to GM Testing where it pulled the highest lateral accelration GM had ever seen at the time (1.18g) and comparable to the handling of cars of today.

Bill Thomas was developing the 'Super Cheetah' as a street version of the Cheetah, he was going to stretch the body 8 inches so it could fit on a Corvette chassis. In Sept 1965, before the Super Cheetah body could be sent out for fiberglass molds to be made, a fire broke out in Thomas's shop and destroyed it all.

I believe a total of 37 Cheetahs were built. To me, this is the all American built race car. I love the look, it screams American 1960s overkill. No grace whatsoever about it.

...plus, only a few replicas exist. I'd love to own one.

You da man, Mr Bruce!!!!

[DMXF]

Skid pad alone doesn't mean much as far as overall handling, it's just one parameter. From some internet searching on the Cheetah, following are some interesting tidbits:

"did quite well on the skid pad, it was concluded that the lack of torsional rigidity was responsible for the erratic handling."

"The handling was never widely acclaimed, however, and it was obvious that Titus’ skill was making up for a lot.....A local Chevrolet dealer picked up the sponsorship, and Titus raced the car briefly, but never with any outstanding success."

"A well detailed Cheetah was a beautiful machine, although it had a number of critical drawbacks in either everyday transportation or control on a race track. "

"The Cheetah was never really intended to be a race car.
Like most other Chevy specials, it’s primary purpose was to make money.
But to make money, it had to be produced as economically as possible, which meant few specially machined or welded parts."

"Practically every piece in the drive train, from the radiator back to the rear hubs was right our of the Corvette." This manifests in the flaws that many kit cars suffer from, in that you are taking suspension components designed to operate at certain points in space relative to one another and putting them on another chassis in different locations. Things like CG to roll center relationships and other parameters will never be just right.....usually only some things can be brought in while others are just what you end up with. The older Corvette rear suspension design is also far inferior to the upper and lower control arm Cobra rear suspension. Corvette racers from back in the day have told me the main way they overcame the suspension shortcomings was to use springs as stiff as possible to minimize suspension travel and of course tires as wide as possible.

The Cheetah also had drum brakes, which says alot.

The Cheetah appeared to have quickly created a bad reputation among drivers due to the poor handling......and there were many accidents as a result.

[mr bruce]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/c...9&iDNumID=6022

[mr bruce]

Still faster and rarer than a Cobra. Pal of mine asked the Old Grouch what he thought of the Cheetah, OG just said" I don't want to talk about it", and stomped away.

[Silverback51]

It was a car where form took a distant second place to function.

[DMXF]

Originally Posted by mr bruce

Still faster and rarer than a Cobra.

Bruce - I wouldn't necessarily jump to that conclusion. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you put a 60's specification big block Cobra with all the top shelf components that were developed for the cars (but many rarely, if ever, utilized) up against a comparable 60's spec Cheetah (not one with all modern enhancements and Dart engine, etc). On a road course the properly equipped Cobra may do better than you think.

The vintage racing scene may be one indicator. Bill Murray used to race CSX3032 often and it only has a few subtle modifications from stock - mainly for reliability. Meanwhile, Bill's main competitors, the Corvettes, have morphed into tube chassis sillouette cars like a modern Sprint Cup stock cars. Note that the SVRA supposedly states you are not supposed to run tube chassis, so the vette boys supposedly graft in pieces of original vette chassis here and there to create some imaginary justification. Suspensions on the vettes are all custom, fixing probably all the shortcomings of the original car, with different attachment points, widened track (pictures show how far the tires stick out from the sides requiring big flares), wider wheels, etc. The Vettes also use modern heads that flow probably 75cfm or more than the ported Cobra medium risers, with much more displacement (3032 is 427 vs I recall around 483 ci for the winning vette at a recent Watkins Glen race) and of course the resulting greater horsepower. At least one vette at the Glen definitely had bigger front tires. In spite of all the differences in authenticity of the cars and other handicaps on the Cobra (will get into that next), Bill's pole position qualifying time in '07 in 3032 at the Glen was about 2:04 vs '08's winning "vette" was 2:03! All that trickery in the vettes and they are only beating an essentially stock handicapped Cobra by about a second - think about that.

Now a bit more about the handicaps: The SVRA refused Bill's attempt to run webers on 3032, in spite of the fact they were developed for and homologated for the big block Cobra at one point. Also, SC cars came with 2x4 Holleys and a few years ago when Bill was going through the engine, he outfitted it with 660cfm dual quads. This setup made notably more power on the dyno and Bill was going to use it.....that is until the SVRA said he could only use that setup if he ran carb bodies with very small restricted approx 450cfm venturies - in spite of the fact that the cars came with 715cfm carbs! That killed the idea, so Bill put the single 850 Holley back on the old dual plane factory intake. The vettes all also run chin spoilers (which is not factory), yet they denied Bill's request to use one - even when Cobras raced with them as early as Bob Olthoff having fitted one in '64. I can't get into all the additional details, but I will add one important fact that the SVRA made Bill add around 200lb of lead ballast to his car so it wouldn't run away from the field!

Compound this by having some professional or semi-professional drivers in the vettes (at least one guy drives in races like the 24 hrs of Daytona) who aren't worried about "trading paint" with $100k stock cars vs a seven figure valued original body Cobra. Mac Archer also used to very successfully vintage race CSX3195 in more modern times. A properly set up Cobra is no slouch.

[mr bruce]

The speeds quoted were from the 60s ,185 at Road America, check the record books, any Cobras running those speeds then? 215 at Daytona, best I've heard a Cobra run there is 198, back in the day. The Cheetah was no slouch back then, even with it's drum brakes, and so called poor suspension/aero, and only 4-5 cars being run. Fergettabout comparing todays cars, too many variables. Deep enough pockets for development and an ace driver, I'll go Cheetah. There's a Cobra on everycorner, hell I leave mine out in the alley all winter.

[WildBill3]

Hmmm lets see the only American car to win a World championship hmmm wonder what it could be?And I like the Cheeta neat car but proofs in the puddin.Bring one to RunNGun and we can fight this out on track again

[mr bruce]

we was talkin' fastest, from back in the day, Cheetah's fastest. you got 1 with the cobra Wolrld Champ. Now today,r+g , kit cars, maybe next year.

[DMXF]

Bruce - The Cheetah was thought by it's developers to be more than a match for the Cobra when comparing to the small block cars: the small block Cobra power to weight ratio was 375hp/1950lb = .19 hp/lb. The high water mark of Cobra engine development, however, was the 427 high riser with 58mm downdraft webers. This engine, with all original 60's specification parts, will generate a solid 600hp. Competition big block Cobras with the lightweight engine were quoted in Shelby American documents to weigh as little as 2150 lb., resulting ratio of .279 hp/lb. I'm not sure about the Cheetah engine power, but I read that some of the cars came with 365 hp 327's and others ran a 377ci. I can't imagine the 377 would put out more than 450hp with cylinder head technology they had back then, but optimistically assuming output of 480hp for the best configuration yields a ratio of .27 hp/lb (I ran across a weight of 1780 lb on the internet). So the cars are quite comparable in that respect.

As far as top speed, the 215mph number sounds hokey and without solid evidence doesn't seem reasonable. Top speed is a function of HP, frontal area and coefficient of drag and 1) The Cobra made more power, 2) The frontal area of the Cheetah looks to be in the ballpark of a race-prepped Cobra, especially since the track width of the Cheetah is about the same as or slightly greater than the big block Cobra, and 3) The nose of the Cheetah looks to be about as bad as the Grand Sport Corvette, with the upward protrusion that scoops up air underneath and makes the car lift off the ground at speeds in excess of approx 150mph. There are also big open areas around the Cheetah wheelwells that grab air. I have fairly extensive empirically-based analysis that shows the big block Cobra in race trim requires 600hp to go 200mph, so how can a Cheetah with less power and similar if not worse aerodynamics go that much faster? Doesn't make sense. I recall hearing the '67 L88 Corvette reached a top speed at Daytona of about 185mph, so given the aerodynamics of that car are more in line with the Cheetah's, that sounds like more of a realistic ballpark.

You are rightfully proud of your car, the Cheetah must be one hell of a ride. You can imagine, however, that posting on a Cobra forum for Cobras to go run and hide would have it's repercussions!

[Cobra #3170]

I will undoubtably regret this but:

600 hp with Webers on a 427 in the 60's "the impossible dream"
Every dyno sheet I have ever seen and I have looked at quite a few show maximum power in the 550 range and that was a 427 Tunnel Port with 15 to 1 pistons with Daytona cam and dual 4 barrels on a single plane manifold. Certainly not a road race set up. The dyno sheets were from the Dearborn engine lab and thus accurate, as compared to other less reliable sources.

How did you get to 2150 for a Cobra with an all aluminum 390 vs a Cobra with a 427 iron block high riser probably more like 2250

Cheetah going 215 on a closed course, again how? Poor aero, not enough HP and poor exit speed because of handling issues.

I watched a Cheetah in a road race on the west coast (Santa Barbara Airport I think) a loooong time ago, it went like hell up the straight but was so bad in the corners that a 289 Cobra hammered it.

For the record I wanted to buy a Cheetah in the 60's because I was a died in the wool chevy guy, I could not get one, so went to the Cobra instead.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by mr bruce

The speeds quoted were from the 60s ,185 at Road America, check the record books, any Cobras running those speeds then? 215 at Daytona, best I've heard a Cobra run there is 198, back in the day. The Cheetah was no slouch back then, even with it's drum brakes, and so called poor suspension/aero, and only 4-5 cars being run. Fergettabout comparing todays cars, too many variables. Deep enough pockets for development and an ace driver, I'll go Cheetah. There's a Cobra on everycorner, hell I leave mine out in the alley all winter.

Yes, the Cheetah is fast, but to me it's not impressive. It's a chassis with a body draped over it. Big deal. Anyone can make something light go fast. When I was in high school, my buddy had a T-bucket with a 600hp small block Chevy in it. It was fast. So what. It was a chassis with a motor. Doesn't take much talent to make a chassis with a high hp motor go fast.

As for the Cheetah doing 215 mph, I am going all in with a super huge BS. Even todays best supercars with 10 times the aerodynamic engineering and more hp struggle to hit 215 mph. There is so much involved with that kind of speed, such as proper ducting for the cooling system, years of downforce testing so as to not become an airborne projectile, etc etc. There is no way a Cheetah did 215mph unless it was dropped off cliff (and even then, it'd have to be a high cliff).

Also for the record, I also don't believe for a second that an open top Cobra roadster did 198mph either, so this is not based on Cobra bias.

And last night I spoke to a friend of mine who raced at Bridgehampton in the 60s along side Cheetahs. He said the saying at the track was, and I quote, "those Cheetahs are so fast because they are trying to outrun the ugly". He also mentioned that while incredibly fast down the main straight, they were easily passed on most turns by cars with half the hp.

[mr bruce]

Where'd the 215 number come from? the internet, so it must be true! (also heard 222 but didn't want to tho that one at you cats, really woulda got your shorts up yer cracks), As for the 198 Cobra number, that too is suspect. the owner of the 198 car is not here anylonger to defend himself , and I read a quote from him once that he didn't believe it himself. The Cobra factory didn't believe it either,but remember the Old Grouch is the PT Barnum of the automotive world, so anyway he could promote his product was fair game. So that all being said, how do you explain the official 185 Cheetah lap times from Road America, in the mid 60s. What were the Cobras running then praytell? and before you died in the wool Fomoco fans break out the tar+feathers, I build Cobras, all 4 bodystyles, fact is I like all cars. My current project between all the other stuff is resurecting the TVR/Griffith marque, All new jigs/fixtures for the frames/suspensions, etc, and new molds for the bodys.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by mr bruce

Where'd the 215 number come from? the internet, so it must be true! (also heard 222 but didn't want to tho that one at you cats, really woulda got your shorts up yer cracks), As for the 198 Cobra number, that too is suspect. the owner of the 198 car is not here anylonger to defend himself , and I read a quote from him once that he didn't believe it himself. The Cobra factory didn't believe it either,but remember the Old Grouch is the PT Barnum of the automotive world, so anyway he could promote his product was fair game. So that all being said, how do you explain the official 185 Cheetah lap times from Road America, in the mid 60s. What were the Cobras running then praytell? and before you died in the wool Fomoco fans break out the tar+feathers, I build Cobras, all 4 bodystyles, fact is I like all cars. My current project between all the other stuff is resurecting the TVR/Griffith marque, All new jigs/fixtures for the frames/suspensions, etc, and new molds for the bodys.

I would believe 185 for the Cheetah, as well as the Cobra. I have no problems with that. But going from 185 to 215, is a GIANT leap forward in power and aerodynamics.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

When I was in high school, my buddy had a T-bucket with a 600hp small block Chevy in it.

Unless you just graduated from high school this year and your friend was running a stroked, supercharged, nitrous added small block, I'm calling MAJOR BULLSH!T on that story. I've been building SB Chevy's for over 40 years and 600 HP with todays technology is barely possible but to do this years ago is an absolute crock of sh!t.


To those challenging Mr.Bruce, you may want to check his resume' before you let your alligator mouth write checks your hummingbird azz can't cash. He's been here over 10 years with 1800 posts and actually BUILDS cars, not buys rollers and thinks he's hot sh!t. Can you say that with your 2 years and 800 posts? I didn't think so.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by jwd

Unless you just graduated from high school this year and your friend was running a stroked, supercharged, nitrous added small block, I'm calling MAJOR BULLSH!T on that story. I've been building SB Chevy's for over 40 years and 600 HP with todays technology is barely possible but to do this years ago is an absolute crock of sh!t.

Just as a point of interest, SBC's can be had at 454 cubic inches and 620 or so HP on pump gas. 427 SBC's in drag trim (13.5:1) at 650HP.
I agree about the speed controversy of the two cars in the day.