Rick Kopec's "What's Your Beef?"

[REAL 1]

You guys apparently haven't seen me in a bikini!

[xlr8or]

Now that's just wrong. You and Evan both owe me a beer for my suffering on that mental image.

[RodKnock]

Forget the real, imagined and replica arguments, that picture ruined my thread.

I don't know who that is, but he definitely needs to do a lot of core training.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Forget the real, imagined and replica arguments, that picture ruined my thread.

I don't know who that is, but he definitely needs to do a lot of core training.

It's gone.

Sorry.

[What'saCobra?]

i seem to recall that from 1962 to about mid 1965, all 289's were mostly called AC Cobras, particularly outside of SoCal's LA basin, up until the 289 world championship and the 427. Nobody ever asked me or my friends if they were either real or genuine.

The patina (worn-out and seriously beat appearance) of an original was enough for an intelligent bloke to not even wonder about originality, let alone be interested enough to ask. The dirt cheap used price kept candybuts from applying too much lipstick beyond ugly fender mirrors and the odd trunk rack. The concept of over-restored had not even been invented for Cobras.

Team cars were particularly distained for their much abused chassis, trannys and ready-to-detonate used engines. Anyone with any brains looked for a nice clean streeter that had been kept off the tracks. Some folks tried to sell their race cars as streeters, to cover-up their track abuse.

My, how today's wantabe punters revise both history and reality to justify their latter-day johnny-come-lately choices.

There was very good reason why Shelby and his Cobras went out of business. They cars were not wanted, new or used. They didn't sell for squat, except for the very few raving lunatics that understood the drug and the odd few rich daddy's boys that wanted rather obscure bragging rights more than common sense. Simple arithmetic proved the economics wasn't sufficient to justify his big staff, location and over-head.

Far more sports were satisfied with 100HP Austin-Healeys and their ill-handling chassis, lousy brakes, crappy live-axles, inept-shocks and pill-box interiors. People flummoxed by SU carbs wouldn't even dream of setting-up a set of 4 X 2bbl Webers.

Personally, still being snake-bit, i love the whole Cobra thing, kits to Kirkhams. Even Shelby's, whoever provides the bodies/chassis. Aly or glass. Square or round-tubed.

To me, the boys from Provo have really shown us how it should be done, though not cheaply. They remain perhaps the lowest cost to manufacture a "proper" aly car, giving them a staying power that is simply unmatched, if they maintain their discipline regarding not overspending on stuff that is very hard to resist.

That said, the glass guys in SA do make very nice stuff with great entry-level prices and pretty super quality. And the secondary glass providers all make good-looking entries in the Cobra sweeps, each more idiosyncratic than the other.

But, i asked about SAAC's opinion regarding the few AC street/comp continuations, having some vestments in that liturgical issue. Are they real Cobras? Or are they only genuine Cobras? FORD seemed to think they were real.

Somewhat similarly, the Shelby-authorized McCluskey "continuations", though certainly and rather notoriously, not AC-sourced chassis, did not seem either real or genuine, at least by the State of California and many of the original owners, when they discovered the illicit con perpetrated by Mr. Shelby in those dreary days. Who would imagine that lacking a real or genuine AC chassis/body would mean such disappointment and gnashing of teeth?

So, it appears at least for those dozen or so cars, they are neither real or genuine, even though they have or at least had, Mr. Shelby's imprimatur.

Wasn't that whole ugly story also the subject of court procedures and heavy-handed press statements from SA regarding the relative provenance and value of AC chassis/body originality, among other hysterical rantings and accusations from SoCal?

So, i merely ask, are the AC continuations, so very few at that, real Cobras in SAAC's eyes? If so, why are they different, even though they have never been touched by the Shelby magic wand?

Authorized by FORD, by the way.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

i seem to recall that from 1962 to about mid 1965, all 289's were mostly called AC Cobras, particularly outside of SoCal's LA basin, up until the 289 world championship and the 427. Nobody ever asked me or my friends if they were either real or genuine.

The patina (worn-out and seriously beat appearance) of an original was enough for an intelligent bloke to not even wonder about originality, let alone be interested enough to ask. The dirt cheap used price kept candybuts from applying too much lipstick beyond ugly fender mirrors and the odd trunk rack. The concept of over-restored had not even been invented for Cobras.

Team cars were particularly distained for their much abused chassis, trannys and ready-to-detonate used engines. Anyone with any brains looked for a nice clean streeter that had been kept off the tracks. Some folks tried to sell their race cars as streeters, to cover-up their track abuse.

My, how today's wantabe punters revise both history and reality to justify their latter-day johnny-come-lately choices.

There was very good reason why Shelby and his Cobras went out of business. They cars were not wanted, new or used. They didn't sell for squat, except for the very few raving lunatics that understood the drug and the odd few rich daddy's boys that wanted rather obscure bragging rights more than common sense. Simple arithmetic proved the economics wasn't sufficient to justify his big staff, location and over-head.

Far more sports were satisfied with 100HP Austin-Healeys and their ill-handling chassis, lousy brakes, crappy live-axles, inept-shocks and pill-box interiors. People flummoxed by SU carbs wouldn't even dream of setting-up a set of 4 X 2bbl Webers.

Personally, still being snake-bit, i love the whole Cobra thing, kits to Kirkhams. Even Shelby's, whoever provides the bodies/chassis. Aly or glass. Square or round-tubed.

To me, the boys from Provo have really shown us how it should be done, though not cheaply. They remain perhaps the lowest cost to manufacture a "proper" aly car, giving them a staying power that is simply unmatched, if they maintain their discipline regarding not overspending on stuff that is very hard to resist.

That said, the glass guys in SA do make very nice stuff with great entry-level prices and pretty super quality. And the secondary glass providers all make good-looking entries in the Cobra sweeps, each more idiosyncratic than the other.

But, i asked about SAAC's opinion regarding the few AC street/comp continuations, having some vestments in that liturgical issue. Are they real Cobras? Or are they only genuine Cobras? FORD seemed to think they were real.

Somewhat similarly, the Shelby-authorized McCluskey "continuations", though certainly and rather notoriously, not AC-sourced chassis, did not seem either real or genuine, at least by the State of California and many of the original owners, when they discovered the illicit con perpetrated by Mr. Shelby in those dreary days. Who would imagine that lacking a real or genuine AC chassis/body would mean such disappointment and gnashing of teeth?

So, it appears at least for those dozen or so cars, they are neither real or genuine, even though they have or at least had, Mr. Shelby's imprimatur.

Wasn't that whole ugly story also the subject of court procedures and heavy-handed press statements from SA regarding the relative provenance and value of AC chassis/body originality, among other hysterical rantings and accusations from SoCal?

So, i merely ask, are the AC continuations, so very few at that, real Cobras in SAAC's eyes? If so, why are they different, even though they have never been touched by the Shelby magic wand?

Authorized by FORD, by the way.

Here's another thing to add to the above mix....

There were two CSX 427s that NEVER saw Shelby and stayed in the UK (and Europe), but yet are just as legit to carry a CSX VIN and be called "Shelby Cobras". So how could those cars be classified as Cobras and yet the continuation Angliss AC built Cobras have to question their classification.

And also, for those who consider modern CSX cars "replicas", do you also consider the 80s AC Cobras and 90s AC continuation CSX 3000 cars replicas?

[JBo]

Go boy go!!!!!

[Jamo]

And also, for those who consider modern CSX cars "replicas", do you also consider the 80s AC Cobras and 90s AC continuation CSX 3000 cars replicas?

yup...British angst

[REAL 1]

The fact that Shelby ditched the AC bonnet tags and relabeled them without the "AC" moniker is not rewriting history unless all the books I've read on Shelby have rewritten it by uniformly noting this "fact". All the books written by American authors clearly seem to favor and give greater weight to the Shelby part of the story and refer to the car as the "Shelby" Cobra. Books authored by British writers conversely seem to favor the "AC" part of the story and almost uniformly give Shelby second billing and refer to the car as the AC Cobra.

I can't speak for what went on outside the LA basin back in 1965 as I lived in N.J. and was riding my purple Schwin 5 speed with a banana seat, watched Speed Racer and Batman and wasn't concerned that much with what people on the west coast were doing. I can say that from guys I have spoken too that were old enough to remember the Cobras here on the East coast they almost all refer to the them as Shelby Cobras.

Fact is without Shelby there would be no Cobra whether AC based or otherwise. AC was the base selected. They were in the right place at the right time with a chasis that worked. If AC was not chosen perhaps another base would have been used.

Back in the 60's all that existed were the original series. Back then no one even dreamed of circumstances that would have Shelby restarting his company again and building his Cobras again, albeit now sourced elsewhere 40 years after his doors closed in 1968.

I'm not sure what is meant by Johnny come lately wantabees but many who grew up dreaming of Cobras back in the 60's and early 70's who were the buyers of the 90's into today were kids back then and could only dream and read about these cars in magazines.

The price, limited number and collectibility of originals put them out of reach of many except the very wealthy or lucky few who owned theirs since the 60's,70's or 80's. The Completion series was attempt at selling newly bodied ORIGINAL chasis at prices under that of an original bodied car.

Whatsacobra mixes apples and oranges. The COMPLETION series was problematic not over whether they were genuine or real Cobras. That was NOT the issue. The buyers thought they were getting an ORIGINAL chasis NOT Mclusky chasis. The flap was over whether they were original chasis.

Continuation series are identical to the completion series only the Continuation series is advertised as having a newly manufactured chasis to the same original specs.

The distinction today is original vs. continuation series not real vs. genuine. Real vs. genuine are synomous. Both series are real/genuine cobras. One is of the original series and the Continuation series is not. Lets not intentionally try to confuse things by trying now to differentiate between to synonyms shall we. Sheesh. The originals are simply distinguished from the because they are the original series. Its that simple.

I don't know what SAAC considers the AC continuation Cobras. I would certainly consider them real Cobras.

Patrickt: Razors point is on point. The general public may not know the difference between a FFR and a Kirkham but the universe of knowledgable buying public does. Two different groups. When Shelbys sell for $50K to $100K or more then a non Shelby that would seem to indicate that the buyer doesn't see the car as a mere replica but something substantially more.

[What'saCobra?]

Shmeplica, replica.

Certainly the issue over the "fake" left-over chassis (note spelling) was they were NOT made in the day. Thought that was communicated adequately with the use of the moniker "left-over".

Further, the salient point is missed regarding AC Cobras, as called by Mr. Shelby himself from the very beginnings, and the abandonment by him of the AC prefix around the time just before the issuance of the 427 and about when SAI started winning lots of races in 1964. Yes, folks do recall different things and there are differences of opinion. There are state records that show 289's registered variously as: FORDs, Cobras, AC Cobras, Shelby Cobras, Ford convertibles, Ford 2-drs, etc and etc. But, MOSTLY, the early cars were both referred to in the literature, registrations, by Shelby, by AC, by the SCCA and by owners as AC Cobras, both here in the USA and in GB.

As Mr. Shelby started feeling his winner's oats, he decided for business/egotistic/other reasons to start rather notoriously panning the AC company, name, ownership and craftsmen. He concluded, probably correctly, that he didn't need AC's long history any longer to justify his Cobra project. It didn't seem to him significant that many people were severely disappointed in that behavior at the time. THAT is the relevance, significance and disappointment of Shelby's dropping the AC prefix, though the AC logo remained in various places on the cars until the end (ex: the brake pedals).

Many of the principals and owners of the day had very mixed feelings about this issue and it is easy today to ignore the emotion it created at the time. i regularly read about the intelligence, wisdom and courage of FORD's providing Shelby with engines on credit... and it is all mostly true. But, i rarely see mentioned the much larger commitment that AC made as a much smaller company, far across the sea, in providing free rolling automobiles. Don't talk to me about the dream that they had no choice. They were doing just fine at the time, but did want to get involved with a winner in FORD and Shelby. They actually took a flier with Shelby, but they liked his racer's success and attitude (not at all English, for sure). Recall that Carroll had won Le Mans with Salvadori, so he really was someone important and had a winner's attitude.

In his business meetings with the Hurlocks, i doubt if Mr. Shelby dwelled much on either his dead chickens or his heart condition; who would? Shelby had plenty of good experience on the track and would transition from a driver to a winning team owner/manager; which was likely not easy for anyone involved.

Back to the topic:
If a Cobra were to be made by some company or persons that made the originals, in my mind perhaps only two outfits (AC or SAI) they might be both replicas and continuation cars, if they can justify the serial authorization somehow. By the way, the italian company in Modena that made the Daytona coupes might be able to justify new ones as continuation cars. Maybe even completions.

AC Cars did make a few 289 completion cars in the 90's. i had a dark blue street car, with an original engine installed from an earlier Cobra, that Brian was kind enough to make for me from the last chassis jig. It is in the original AC registry from the factory.

And, AC Cars, under Lubinsky, made at least one FIA car, which made the rounds here in the USA, as being sold by AC Cars USA. It would properly be called, real, continuation, perhaps completion, etc, but not original.

Probably the only genuine (and perhaps still "legal in all states") completion cars are the few AC CSX 3XXX cars made by AC in the early nineties by AC Cars Limited, a UK company. But, admittedly, the later few Lubinsky cars are serialized as CSX 3XXX's, i am told reliably. i doubt if they are legal in the USA. Perhaps they are and i just don't understand how.

The completion cars authorized to be built by Shelby from new steel do still exist somewhere around the world and they show up at auctions here in the USA and a few shows from time to time. They are quite OK and reflect the attention to detail of which Mike McCluskey ought to remain proud.

They are also be real, if not original; though they might be original-styled or original-engineered or original-fabricated.

If Cobra replicas or copies are made by a third party (except perhaps by McCluskey on order from Shelby), even if exactamente, Cobra copies are certainly not original nor real nor continuations, at least not legit or arguable by serial numbering.

At least to me, if Shel' says they are real Cobras, they are. Though he doesn't say (these days) that they are "original", because that is where he got into grief previously on the "lost" AC CSX 3XXX chassis.

If he says they are continuation cars, they are. And he has every right to name the serial numbers. Except for the CSX 2XXX and CSX 3XXX cars, which is where he had some difficulties, he can call them what he wishes and that makes them what he calls them.

If he calls them completion cars, they might or might not be, depending on the serialization.

Remember that replicas were also made by AC and raced, sold and called replicas by SAI. We might recall the Le Mans Replicas. They were close clones of the cars actually raced at LM and used by SAI for early racing in the US. i owned one for a few years and it was very very used when i bot it, though it was much better when i sold it for my own school tuition. Notice that this is both "factories" calling it a replica, without shame.

But, in normal usage, anyone can build a replica and call it that. You might even get a state authority to accept any serial number, though that is more difficult to do these days. A replica is a replica is a schmeplica. To me at least, not a problem or an embarrassment.

We own a continuation car which is also a replica. It is real. It is also a completion car, IMHO. It is certainly NOT original and can never be. Nor is it a Shelby. It is genuine, though. It's all so confusing at my age.
---------
Real
What is synomous? Do you mean synonymous or synonyms? Is that like "to synonyms" or two synonyms? i get so easily confused in my dotage. One does not ever intentionally confuse friends, i hope; but, i do get it mixed up from time to time. But, at least, at one time i did understand, so very long ago. Some have never known at all, i'm told.
i am always willing to accept criticism from my betters, particularly suffering the blooming obvious, for which i thank you for your wit, clarity and your blessed helpfulness, without which i would continue mixing my apples with my oranges. (i'm so embarrassed!)

[REAL 1]

Whatsacobra: I think what what were are saying is synonomous or synonyms or synonymous?. . Aren't synonyms and synononmous the same??? Now I'm getting confused..

My recollection and reading has CS taking the AC logos off years before the 427 but I defer to age and experience sir. Point is we both agree that he did attempt to deep six ACs contribution of the day from immediate visage.

I also believe you are utilizing the correct dictonary meaning of replica not how it has come to be known and meant in popular usage perhaps justifying a tweak of Websters...

I agree both ACs and Shelby ought to be considered real and genuine Cobras if not original.

[Ron61]

I may be completely wrong on this, but I believe that when the continuation Cobras first came out, California refused to register them and you had to get a SB-100 number if you wanted to register it legally at a later date. Something about a new frame and it wasn't made in the 60s, so they said it was illegal and had to meet the present day emissions and so forth. I don't know if this still is the fact or not as when I heard they wouldn't let them be registered I quit looking for one.

Ron

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Ron61

I may be completely wrong on this, but I believe that when the continuation Cobras first came out, California refused to register them and you had to get a SB-100 number if you wanted to register it legally at a later date. Something about a new frame and it wasn't made in the 60s, so they said it was illegal and had to meet the present day emissions and so forth. I don't know if this still is the fact or not as when I heard they wouldn't let them be registered I quit looking for one.

Ron

Ron, those were not continuation cars, they were called completion cars. The idea was Shelby build new Cobras using original left over chassis. The cars were to be sold for 500k each, with most of the proceeds going to charity (another story that doesn't need to be discussed here).

Of course it was soon found out that no "left over" chassis existed and that Shel had McCluskey build the cars from scratch. When CA found out, they banned them from ever being registered in Cali.

Now, through whatever brand of Cobra I have had at the time, my view has been the same. If the car was sold by either Shelby or AC, and they call it a Cobra, then it's a real Cobra. Personally, I do not see how anyone can argue that point. How on earth can anyone tell the selling company that what they are selling is not really what they are selling?

Seems pretty simple to me. If Shelby says it's a Cobra, it's a Cobra. If AC says it's a Cobra, it's a Cobra.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

Seems pretty simple to me. If Shelby says it's a Cobra, it's a Cobra. If AC says it's a Cobra, it's a Cobra.

Does it follow Sal that if he says an SPF is a Cobra, it's a 'Cobra' (in the sense that it originated from his organization)??

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Sal,

Here's some notes from the new Registry, page 708,

"Because he (Shelby) did not want his cars devalued by using the term replica, Shelby chose "Component Cobra." This separated his cars from all the rest, the riff-raff, and also suited his need to explain (mostly to various DMV authorities) that these cars were only components of a completed car - not the completed car itself, which would be required to adhere at all sorts of current stringent governmental safety regulations"

Ok, you can discuss now

Signed: Only T. Messenger

That's the second time you've posted that to me, are you trying to say something?

I also am not sure what that has to do with what I wrote? Yes, new CSXs are component cars, as pretty much all other modern Cobras are, because they have to be sold as such for the obvious reason they do not meet current DOT and EPA standards for a new completed automobile.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Does it follow Sal that if he says an SPF is a Cobra, it's a 'Cobra' (in the sense that it originated from his organization)??

Obviously we all know that Shelby granted SPF the right to use the Cobra name. So yes, an SPF can be called a Cobra (even though it doesn't matter as we all call them all Cobras). It's a Superformance Cobra, which is a replica of a real Shelby Cobra, which is a Cobra sold by Shelby.

[Jamo]

LMFAO...

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

That's the second time you've posted that to me, are you trying to say something?

I also am not sure what that has to do with what I wrote? Yes, new CSXs are component cars, as pretty much all other modern Cobras are, because they have to be sold as such for the obvious reason they do not meet current DOT and EPA standards for a new completed automobile.

Sal,
Perhaps I'm having a senior moment but I only find my reply once on page one of this thread.
I believe I was offering the current terminology used by both SAAC and SA for the 4000 etc series of cars. They are referred to as component cars rather than continuation cars.

http://www.shelbyautos.com/CSX4000.asp
http://www.saac.com/index.php?option...pper&Itemid=78

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Sal,
Perhaps I'm having a senior moment but I only find my reply once on page one of this thread.
I believe I was offering the current terminology used by both SAAC and SA for the 4000 etc series of cars. They are referred to as component cars rather than continuation cars.

http://www.shelbyautos.com/CSX4000.asp
http://www.saac.com/index.php?option...pper&Itemid=78

Guess I'm the retard with the senior moment... I clicked a link to this thread which brought up the first page, not the last, and thought you'd posted the same thing again.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Power Surge

Guess I'm the retard with the senior moment... I clicked a link to this thread which brought up the first page, not the last, and thought you'd posted the same thing again.

Does that mean your're the older one