Cobra vs Today's Cars

[zrayr]

great comments & comparison.


Z. Ray

[Tom Kirkham]

Evan,

Thank you. I love your comparison.

Which of the two cars do you find easier to live with? i.e. backing up, maintenance, cruising, etc.?

Interestingly Iron Man crushed one of our cars...

[Cobra #3170]

Just an opinion,

New cars are clearly superior to original Cobras as well as 99.9 % of the replicas. The Cobra suffers from a short wheel base, narrow track width, poor torsional rigidity, terrible suspension geometry, bad aero and most important of all, tires and wheels that are absolutely no match for modern 18-20" wheels and wide tires. I have owned a 2002 Z06, a 2005 Viper and now a Ford GT. All of these cars would destroy my Cobra when it was new in 1965 under any conditions. The biggest short fall is in the tire department. Any 15 or 16" diameter tire that will fit on a Cobra including full racing slicks is inferior to the new wide radial 18-20" street tires available on new cars. Unfortunately, the new tires require good suspension geometry to work properly and the Cobra’s (most) do not have that because of packaging limitations. The Cobra is also very difficult to drive because of the short wheel base, high power to weight and narrow track so an equal driver in a modern car will be faster. Other factors like power brakes, power steering, ABS, traction control and active suspension are additional disadvantages.

[ERA Chas]

A possibly more painful comparison for a Cobra today is the Lotus Elise.
It is street legal and right at the $50K pricepoint that many Cobra replicas cost to build, and many Cobras are more than that. FGT's and Vette's (ZO's and ZR's) are much more money than that.
Available with either 189 or 218 HP, it's great equalizer is the fact that it's a minimum of 400 pounds lighter than most Cobras, and can put all of it's power down.
So, can an Elise clean our clocks? Can it run with FGT's and Vette's? Mosler's? Panoz'?
Anyone here own an Elise and can share comparative lap times?

[RedBarchetta]

Evan, great comparo. I would sell all my cars and bequeath my left nut to a castrated Pakistani sex offender just to have a FGT in my possession.

For the OP I will compare my 480HP (at the flywheel) Superformance replica to my daily driver '02 Z06 (humbly rated at 405HP at the flywheel). As a driver, I personally feel more confident being very aggressive with the Z06. The benefits of better tire and suspension technology, not to mention active handling controls, really allows you to explore the limits without getting yourself in too deep. This car absolutely rocks and I can only imagine what a C6Z feels like with an additional 100 HP and bigger brakes (most likely my next daily driver once I wear out this one).

I can't say the same in the Cobra...It's as raw as a battle ax - the driving experience, that is (and it should be that way). It's a magnet wherever I travel and the straight line acceleration (drag radial and/or Billboard stickies assisted) would beat my Z06 in any 1/8 or 1/4 mile test. Not by much (maybe 3 to 5/10's, max), but it would still win. This car, even though fully sorted out, handles quite well. I just lack the self-confidence (and the wallet) to really see just how hard I can push it in the twisties.

Many a Cobra lover/owner gets wrapped up in the "romance" of driving one of these beasts. The real experience is usually much different than the dream dictates. It's not for everyone, but I have more fun bombing around town in my SPF than I ever did in the various muscle cars I have owned.

So my final vote (and answer to your question) is that modern muscle will beat the old Cobras more times than not.

-Dean

[DMXF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

The Cobra suffers from a short wheel base, narrow track width, poor torsional rigidity, terrible suspension geometry, bad aero and most important of all, tires and wheels that are absolutely no match for modern 18-20" wheels and wide tires.

Bruce - Please expand on these issues, like poor handling, with data, graphs, etc. You have far more experience than me, but from what I see and hear, a properly set up original spec Cobra is no slouch. The wheelbase is almost the same as a modern Porsche, so that alone isn't that big a handicap. The biggest issue I understand with the Cobra's suspension is excessive rear toe steer, which can be minimized to a tolerable level. Vintage type tires that will fit a Cobra are slightly narrower than some modern supercars, but if you look at the unit tire loading the Cobra is still actually superior. Here's another bit of comparison:

Lap times at some race tracks also don't support the Cobra as being so bad. Here are some recent lap times from Road America:

Car Lap time (min, sec)
CSX4000 Cobra 2:24
'74 Porsche 911RSR 2:27
'98 Porsche GT3 Cup 2:30
'97 Panoz GTS 2:30.9
'96 Porsche 993RSR 2:34.9
'65 Corvette roadster 2:26.7
'66 GT350 2:31.9

I believe Bill Murray was doing about 2:23 with CSX3032, which is probably the closest you will find to how Shelby American would have prepped these cars for a works effort back in the 60's.

For comparison, here's Road America lap info I found on the web on some newer cars:

"I was at Road America too this past weekend; thankfully, Sunday's weather made up for Saturday's rain and sleet.

This was my first real time on a race track. My Z06 is stock except for Hawk Blue's, Motul brake fluid, lowered 5 turns, and a street alignment. I did a best of 2:52 and am happy with that since I was hoping to break 3:00 (..I was in the Novice class in Torch Red).

Anyway, I let my buddy drive my car who does 2:34's in his 265 rwhp Porsche 928 Euro (..the sweetest sounding car the entire weekend), and we went out in the 'A' class. Anyway, the black GT3 zipped by us after Turn 5 and we gave chase, but the GT3 slowly pulled away, and after two laps he was out of sight. I was impressed how fast it was down the straights, and impressed too we were able to hang with him as long as we did. During the session, my buddy's wife clocked us at 2:42; not too bad for someone driving a car he never took around a track before.

So I'm guessing based upon our 2:42's with the GT3 that you guys must have been slightly faster doing high-2:40's/low-2:41's; is that close?"

I've also seen lap times of what Bill Murray can do in CSX3032 at Watkins Glen and I think it's notable better than a Z06. I'm not saying the Cobra is perfect, but I bet if you tasked McLaren's race shop to prep an original Cobra for vintage racing and specified they retain most of the major original components, I bet it would smoke just about anything off the showroom floor on a smooth track, short of something like a McLaren F1 or the like. The power to weight advantage is just so superior its hard to make up for with subtle improvements here and there.

[REAL 1]

Tom: Thanks. I hoped you guys would enjoy that one.

The Cobra is easier to see out of in sideviews and rearward since it has no top.

The FGT is very tricky at intersections that aren't perfect "T" intersections where one part of the "T" is at an angle and you have to look to your right and back slightly to see oncoming traffic. Forget it. You just can't. You have to square the car off to the intersection to see. MAJOR blind spot. It can be scary. But once you learn to compensate by angleing the car off so you are at 90 degrees to the intersection street every things fine. Rearview sight straight back is limited too. You mainly see that supercharger and that spining pully and belt on the supercharger. You just have to be careful but the sideviews mirrors are great.

Once your underway the only word I have to describe the FGT is its "epoc" (quoting Jermey Clarkeson from Top Gear). You can drive it for hours on end. Its comfy, air conditioned, the window go up and down with the push of a button, it handles great, looks gorgeous and goes like stink and from all the design cues you are constantly reminded you are driving the modern day Ford GT40. It makes all the right exhaust sounds even in stock trim. I have a Ford Racing Exhaust which put out a little more sound. I am soon putting on a custom exhaust fabricated by a tuning house in California specialing in FGTs that will give it more of the V8 rumble it is missing to a degree.

The FGT is a sophiscated sexy gal that you love and never want to leave.

The Cobra, well we all know what thats like. Loud, hot, exhaust fumes, vibration and rumble from that monsterous V8, doors that feel like Doritos and the sense that if you put your foot in it at the wrong moment at the wrong time on any turn it could be your last. Its sensory overload. 45 minutes in a Cobra on a hot summer day, you can't taste, your ears ring, your hair looks like its you stuck your finger in a electrical socket, you smell like V8 exhaust and your all sweaty.... In short, it doesn't get much better for the true Cobra nut and muscle car guy.

The Cobra is that hot chick with the belly button ring and the tattoo above her arse that you can only take for a few hours, get your fill and want to leave only to find yourself wanting to go back for more very soon thereafter.

I think you get the picture.

P.S. Dean: As great as the FGT is please don't give up your left nut for one and especially don't give it to that Pakistani!!!! There are better ways to acquire a FGT.

[kobrabytes]

I "believe" that a Cobra is technically a mid-engine car.

At the track (Millers) with a really good driver, not me, Kirkham vs GT40, the Kirkham was out running the GT40.

[REAL 1]

Dcmgt: I don't think anyone hear is saying the Cobra is a slouch by any stretch of the imagination. Very simply, its no slouch.

It was designed to go head to head with the Ferrari 275LM and Corvette Grand Sport with the 377cu in motor. Those two are some pretty serious cars. The 427 won (I believe) 7 SCCA A Production Titles between 1965 and 1972. In the right hands it is a weopon to be reckoned with and if your opposing you better be on your game with enough firepower.

Against more modern competition it will not fair as well as the competition it faced years ago, even 10 years ago. It wouldn't leave embarrassed but it would likely not leave with the laurels. Its like the former heavy weight champ that can still knock you on your a$$ if your not careful.

One thing the Cobra still retains in my book is its unsurpassed personal of "sinister" and it is I believe the most famous American muscle car of all time.

[Chaplin]

Hey Evan,
I think I saw you out in the GT a couple of weeks ago. I like the plate you put on it.

[kobrabytes]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The Cobra, well we all know what thats like. Loud, hot, exhaust fumes, vibration and rumble from that monsterous V8, doors that feel like Doritos and the sense that if you put your foot in it at the wrong moment at the wrong time on any turn it could be your last. Its sensory overload. 45 minutes in a Cobra on a hot summer day, you can't taste, your ears ring, your hair looks like its you stuck your finger in a electrical socket, you smell like V8 exhaust and your all sweaty.... In short, tt doesn't get much better for the true Cobra nut and muscle car guy.

The Cobra is that hot chick with the belly button ring and the tattoo above her arse that you can only take for a few hours, get your fill and want to leave only to find yourself wanting to go back for more very soon thereafter.

Know this well. At times after a long drive the vibration and sensory overload takes a few hours to leave my brain. Overload? I think that says it all. Equally as intense, or more, than my bike riding riding days. Fortunately with the cobra if I forget to put my foot down I don't fall over like I did on the bike...

[REAL 1]

I didn't know the Cobra was technically a "mid-engined" car??? When I lift my front boot the engine is there every time. What gives????

Maybe Tom can speak to this revelation.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

Hey Evan,
I think I saw you out in the GT a couple of weeks ago. I like the plate you put on it.

I sure hope it doesn't say "REAL 2".

[CowtownCobra]

I will only say from experience in open track that the Mini Cooper S John Cooper should not be messed with on a tight road course...

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The FGT is a sophiscated sexy gal that you love and never want to leave.

Kim Bassinger.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The Cobra is that hot chick with the belly button ring and the tattoo above her arse that you can only take for a few hours, get your fill and want to leave only to find yourself wanting to go back for more very soon thereafter.

Megan Fox.


'Nuff said.

[Cobra #3170]

I do not wish to get in one of your "look at this 1967 graph that shows bla bla bla" public debates; the laws of physics have not been repealed to my knowledge. Short cars have a tendency to be unstable, especially high horsepower cars, why do you think dragsters have such long wheel bases?
Narrow cars transfer more weight to the outside wheels than wider cars, how many modern race cars are narrow? A stock Cobra has very little camber gain front or rear, you have to compensate for body roll and tire distortion with camber change, the Cobra does a very poor job of that.
You are quoting amateur driver times and vintage racer times both of which are usually quite slow. I believe Mr. Murray may be the exception to that and probably has a superbly prepared car to go along with his talent. A CTS-V Cadillac in race trim laps Road America in 2:15 and a similarly prepared Gt-3 Porsche does about 1:20. I would say that answers the question of superiority.

If you will have your car ready I would like to challenge you to a Cobra vs. Ford GT race at SAAC 35 in Willow Springs. You can bring your Weber carbed 427, with Ferrari designed valve train and I will bring my bone stock Ford GT and we can compare lap times. We all love Cobras here but the past is the past, let it go and enjoy the car for what it is, an untamed animal that can be a blast to drive. Part of the cars charm is that whenever you drive it really fast you think you have just cheated death. My GT does not make me feel like that although the Corvette did a little bit with the stability control off.

Please let me know if you will be available for SAAC 35 and I will make sure I have a clear calendar. I would like to leave it at that rather than get in one of those long post after post debates.



Lap times at some race tracks also don't support the Cobra as being so bad. Here are some recent lap times from Road America:

Car Lap time (min, sec)
CSX4000 Cobra 2:24
'74 Porsche 911RSR 2:27
'98 Porsche GT3 Cup 2:30
'97 Panoz GTS 2:30.9
'96 Porsche 993RSR 2:34.9
'65 Corvette roadster 2:26.7
'66 GT350 2:31.9

I believe Bill Murray was doing about 2:23 with CSX3032, which is probably the closest you will find to how Shelby American would have prepped these cars for a works effort back in the 60's.

For comparison, here's Road America lap info I found on the web on some newer cars:

"I was at Road America too this past weekend; thankfully, Sunday's weather made up for Saturday's rain and sleet.

This was my first real time on a race track. My Z06 is stock except for Hawk Blue's, Motul brake fluid, lowered 5 turns, and a street alignment. I did a best of 2:52 and am happy with that since I was hoping to break 3:00 (..I was in the Novice class in Torch Red).

Anyway, I let my buddy drive my car who does 2:34's in his 265 rwhp Porsche 928 Euro (..the sweetest sounding car the entire weekend), and we went out in the 'A' class. Anyway, the black GT3 zipped by us after Turn 5 and we gave chase, but the GT3 slowly pulled away, and after two laps he was out of sight. I was impressed how fast it was down the straights, and impressed too we were able to hang with him as long as we did. During the session, my buddy's wife clocked us at 2:42; not too bad for someone driving a car he never took around a track before.

So I'm guessing based upon our 2:42's with the GT3 that you guys must have been slightly faster doing high-2:40's/low-2:41's; is that close?"

I've also seen lap times of what Bill Murray can do in CSX3032 at Watkins Glen and I think it's notable better than a Z06. I'm not saying the Cobra is perfect, but I bet if you tasked McLaren's race shop to prep an original Cobra for vintage racing and specified they retain most of the major original components, I bet it would smoke just about anything off the showroom floor on a smooth track, short of something like a McLaren F1 or the like. The power to weight advantage is just so superior its hard to make up for with subtle improvements here and there.[/quote]

[REAL 1]

Chaplin: Yeah, I got the idea for the plate from a "friend" right here on CC.

One day when the kids are all grown and I have time for a dedicated track car I can transfer the plate to the track car so he'll know whose passing him.

Red: I like Megan Fox. Good choice.

Kate Beckisale would be my choice on the other but if she weren't available Kim would do just fine.

[DMXF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

Short cars have a tendency to be unstable, especially high horsepower cars, why do you think dragsters have such long wheel bases?

[/quote]

Yes, but as with everything else comparative assessments are paramount. Doesn't the ratio of wheelbase to track come into play? I found the following pertinent info online:

"The ratio between the wheelbase and the track (taken as an average between the front an the rear track) seems to be an important parameter that is relevant to handling characteristics of cars. It is quite interesting to see in, that the average wheelbase-track ratio for seven GP racing cars (Brabham, BRM, Coventry, Eagle, Ferrari, Lotus and Murasama) is, 1.617, which is quite close to the Golden Mean, (1+sqrt(5))/2) = 1.618, which is also called, the Golden Section. While the data given in the site above was used as an input for a race car simulator, they nevertheless seem to give real life values. I wouldn`t automatically dismiss the curious coincidence above as meaningless. After all, an optimal handling of cars designed for best handling (rather than, say, optimal fuel consumption) should reflect a compromise between two extremes described (see the site above) as, Long, slim cars ==> "improved stability at high speeds." Short, wider cars ==> more "responsive on a tight course." In other words, the optimal wheelbase-track ratio and the Golden Mean ratio (which, for example, represents the "ideal" length to width ratio of picture frames) may have something in common after all".

Yes, the Cobra is relatively narrow, but when you look at the wheelbase to track ratio, the Audi TT is 1.594 and the Viper SRT10 is 1.62, compared to 1.607 that I calculate for the 427 Cobra.....so it doesn't sound all that out of whack.

I'm all for enjoying the cars for what they are. A Cobra provides quite an experience on the street, which includes making you feel faster than anything else on the road. The new technology thing is just vastly overblown. If you really look at and analyze most new cars, you find that aside from computer appendages, most technologies employed are many, many decades old. New high end Porsches come with rinky-dink McPherson strut suspensions. I bet those camber curves are not ideal. The superior feel is from everything being tight and coming from the factory more optimized/tuned, as opposed to Shelby American back in the day expecting the buyer to do the final configuration and setup.

On the track challenge, my car won't be ready, but it's interesting that a similar modern supercar vs Cobra track comparison scenario was brought up in our original Cobra owner's group not too long ago. We had potential interest from a "best of breed" track tuned original Cobra and one of the guys in our group writes for a major automotive magazine, so the thought was to do it as the subject of an article. Comparing to something like a Z06 or ACR Viper seemed like the most interesting, naturally competitive comparison, but the advantage in lap time the Cobra looked to have would probably not be palatable by the editors, since they receive alot of funding in one way or another from the car companies and if the indications are true that some of the new supercars would look bad, it may have repercussions.

[Cobra #3170]

Your car is never ready but your skewed concepts are, you just don't get it do you? Wheel base / track comparisons may give you an ideal ratio but it won't give you the optimum width or length for a given car. I will put my Cobra up against anything you or any of your buddies in the "Original Cobra owners group" have in any contest you would like autox, road course, drag race 0-100-0 or top speed. That said, I still say the Cobra is inferior to new vehicles. I believe my work experience with Ford Motor may give me a little more insight than somebody quoting magazine statistics. So let’s stop the BS and put up or shut up. Your car experience seems to be based largely on research and not much on driving. I have been around Road America in 2:12 in an old Atlantic car, have you even driven there? How many modern cars have you driven at speed, and what were your lap times at any current race tracks? I think you are a book boy and not knowledgeable in real world terms or you would realize your claims are not based on sound engineering principals but on wishful thinking. So, enough of the BS, lets talk about a car test or discontinue the discussion.



Yes, but as with everything else comparative assessments are paramount. Doesn't the ratio of wheelbase to track come into play? I found the following pertinent info online:

"The ratio between the wheelbase and the track (taken as an average between the front an the rear track) seems to be an important parameter that is relevant to handling characteristics of cars. It is quite interesting to see in, that the average wheelbase-track ratio for seven GP racing cars (Brabham, BRM, Coventry, Eagle, Ferrari, Lotus and Murasama) is, 1.617, which is quite close to the Golden Mean, (1+sqrt(5))/2) = 1.618, which is also called, the Golden Section. While the data given in the site above was used as an input for a race car simulator, they nevertheless seem to give real life values. I wouldn`t automatically dismiss the curious coincidence above as meaningless. After all, an optimal handling of cars designed for best handling (rather than, say, optimal fuel consumption) should reflect a compromise between two extremes described (see the site above) as, Long, slim cars ==> "improved stability at high speeds." Short, wider cars ==> more "responsive on a tight course." In other words, the optimal wheelbase-track ratio and the Golden Mean ratio (which, for example, represents the "ideal" length to width ratio of picture frames) may have something in common after all".

Yes, the Cobra is relatively narrow, but when you look at the wheelbase to track ratio, the Audi TT is 1.594 and the Viper SRT10 is 1.62, compared to 1.607 that I calculate for the 427 Cobra.....so it doesn't sound all that out of whack.

I'm all for enjoying the cars for what they are. A Cobra provides quite an experience on the street, which includes making you feel faster than anything else on the road. The new technology thing is just vastly overblown. If you really look at and analyze most new cars, you find that aside from computer appendages, most technologies employed are many, many decades old. New high end Porsches come with rinky-dink McPherson strut suspensions. I bet those camber curves are not ideal. The superior feel is from everything being tight and coming from the factory more optimized/tuned, as opposed to Shelby American back in the day expecting the buyer to do the final configuration and setup.

On the track challenge, my car won't be ready, but it's interesting that a similar modern supercar vs Cobra track comparison scenario was brought up in our original Cobra owner's group not too long ago. We had potential interest from a "best of breed" track tuned original Cobra and one of the guys in our group writes for a major automotive magazine, so the thought was to do it as the subject of an article. Comparing to something like a Z06 or ACR Viper seemed like the most interesting, naturally competitive comparison, but the advantage in lap time the Cobra looked to have would probably not be palatable by the editors, since they receive alot of funding in one way or another from the car companies and if the indications are true that some of the new supercars would look bad, it may have repercussions.[/quote]

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I didn't know the Cobra was technically a "mid-engined" car???...Maybe Tom can speak to this revelation.

The engine is between the front and rear axle.

One big performance disadvantage a Cobra has is aerodynamics. The Cobra has lift not down force; and is an aerodynamic brick, although a very beautiful brick.

The world has come a long way since the Cobras were built.