Cobra roll bar safety

[mickmate]

I have recently looked at roll bars on a couple of different breeds. I have discovered problems waiting to happen and unfortunately that have happened. In one manufacturers defense the manual reads "the roll bar is for decorative purposes only". Just as well as it's not tall enough anyway. The kind of stuff I'm seeing is too thin a wall tubing using seamed (ERW) tube both for the roll bar or the mounts. Bars sleeved over mount stubs and not even bolted to them. Mounting brackets made from whatever is left laying around the shop. Mounting brackets that are loosely attached to the chassis with stripped and missing nutserts instead of being welded to the chassis.
Good bad example.

My background on roll bars is seeing and having some drivers hurt as a result of roll bar design flaws and deficiencies. I have seen SCCA change rules on roll bars after tech crews have been over crashed vehicles and seen drivers hurt. The Cobra bars as you may know will not conform to any modern roll bar class requirements. That shouldn't stop us from putting them in strong and sensible with spec tube so they will work if they are required to. I make them so you can pick the car up with them. I have made the traditional single drivers bar, the dual version of the same (must be time for a hoorah from Patrick) and also the double wide bars.
It's late and I'm done for the day I'll be back with more on this tomorrow. In the meantime get a hold of your roll bar and give it a good yank and make sure it moves the whole car. While you're there eyeball the mounts and make sure they look solid. Like the Sarge says on Hill Street Blues "lets be careful out there".

[John S Peterson]

I'm almost afraid to ask what kind of "kit" that is on....Kind of scares you what some people will do. How many cars have you seen or heard of where the seat belts are mounted just through fiberglass floor......

JP

[Double Venom]

"The Cobra bars as you may know will not conform to any modern roll bar class requirements.... ". (mickmate),

mickmate,
Sorry, but that is a pretty strong statement. ALL of my rollbars and a few others meet or exceed anything that SCCA, or NHRA requires. All are DOM material, at least 2" OD and are properly mounted!

However, I will say that most of the kit Cobras I have seen do NOT have valid roll bars, 3-point and especially the long 2-point bars! "Classic Roadsters is at least one company that lists the 3-point as "Cosmetic Only" but I have see numerous Cobra roll overs, especially at Run N Gun and not one of the bars failed! The only reason I can think of since CR's uses this disclaimer is just for that reason, but a lot of their roll bars ARE ERW steel and not DOM seamless.

Statements made here are World Wide and should be posted with care. At least that is the way I see it.

DV

PS...Seatbelt mounting makes me cringe on these cars! Seatbelts bolted through fiberglass with even a large washer for support is a very serious BAD joke! (My other life - Retired: Chief Detective Accident Investigation Squad- Reconstruction of Fatal Accidents)

[Mdman352]

Originally Posted by John S Peterson

I'm almost afraid to ask what kind of "kit" that is on....Kind of scares you what some people will do. How many cars have you seen or heard of where the seat belts are mounted just through fiberglass floor......

JP

The same kit where this picture came from. Not necessarily the "kits" fault, but more of a builders ignorance.
david

[mdross1]

Yikes! just for looks roll bar? who in their right mind would do something like that? I have to wonder though how much protection a stock bar affords given my head is at the top of the bar.One thing is for certain it will never crush or be torn off my car.

[trularin]

My roll bars are pretty hefty. I moved them up and positioned them for best frame location. mine will protect the head if the car flips or rolls.

I have seen the thin metal chrome ones.

There was a thread where picture of an accident showed the bar crushed. Don't know where it is on CC, but it tells you a lot.

[Tom Wells]

Here's a picture of the previous generation (III?) Everett Morrison frame showing the welded pads for the roll bar mountings. Two bars are attached (not installed yet):
The attachments are above and in front of the gas tank. They consist of rectangular, horizontal pads with attachment holes drilled in them.

The frame has been changed, but an equivalent is made by Power Performance.

Note: the roll bars are stainless and stout. Possibly 3/32" wall tubing?. Unfortunately they were tested. They worked!

Tom

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mdross1

Yikes! just for looks roll bar? who in their right mind would do something like that?

When I was trying to buy a CCX car in the mid 1980's Peter B. made a point that the roll bar was just decorative. But I'm almost positive that we discussed the roll bar being replaced with one that was "fully functional" and it was not as a difficult operation. I'm pretty sure that conversation took place and I'm not imagining it....

[N2VENOM]

It's that kind of lousy workmanship that gives the "Kit Car" industry a bad name. Why anyone would settle for a "cosmetic" roll bar is beyond me. The cobra market has hopefully advanced to the point that we have minimum standards like functional roll bars. I would like to know which cobra manufactures have cosmetic or functional roll bars. I have owned 9 cobras and know just a few that are functional. I hope there are more.

1. Kirkham - Functional
2. West Coast - Functional
3. ?
4. ?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by N2VENOM

It's that kind of lousy workmanship that gives the "Kit Car" industry a bad name. Why anyone would settle for a "cosmetic" roll bar is beyond me.

It's probably one of those "lawyer things."

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by N2VENOM

I would like to know which cobra manufactures have cosmetic or functional roll bars. I have owned 9 cobras and know just a few that are functional. I hope there are more.

What a great question (where's Cashburn on this). From the ERA web site:

Is the roll bar functional?

While our (visual-duplicate-of-original) single-width roll bar doesn't meet current racing specifications, it is fully structural, bolting directly to the main frame rails. We also offer a full-width bar and a dual roll bar configuration (at right).


EDIT -- The hyperlinks got munged on the rip. Here's the page I borrowed it from: http://www.erareplicas.com/427/faqs.htm

[CobraEd]

I wish I had a rollbar on my Classic Roadsters. I don't think the car looks quite right without it. Have had the car for over 10 years and love it but it would look better with the rollbar. I have been told you cannot easily add it once the car is built. Besides, where would I get one now anyway???


.

[Double Venom]

CobraEd,
So you know, adding a three point bar or even a 4-point bar is NOT a problem what so ever with a finished CR's. Steady nerves and very careful measuring is all that is needed with a painted body!
DV

[sdfletch]

Ed,

DV beat me to it. All you will need is a template for the hole and a bar to copy.

[RedBarchetta]

My take:

- Some attorney requested Contemporary to put that statement in their literature (for potential liability reasons)
- I have seen at least three rollover pics of Superformance cars. In each case, the roll bar ultimately did its job (albeit with some distortion). Some of those accidents were widely covered here at CC. There are also published upgrades for SPF owners (via SCOF) to reinforce this same area.

These cars are nasty enough with or without a rollbar. Ride at your own peril. 'Nuff said.

-Dean

[elmariachi]

The Hurricane is very well done. The rear leg slides down over a 6" long stub that is welded up from the frame in the trunk deck. Then the hoop legs are slid over two frame-welded 6" tall stubs mounted behind the driver's seat. Then the top of the rear leg is slid back up into its spot in the hoop and "wedged" into place and bolted. There are also bolts that hold the front hoop legs onto their mounts but they are really not needed because once the rear leg is wedged into place and bolted, the assembly is tri-pod wedged and cannot move up or down. I also have mounts for an identical passenger rollbar so I can someday be like Patrick. Well, sorta.....

I would not ride in much less own one of these cars without a frame-mounted rollbar.




EDIT>>>And I saw that rolled SPF in NE Houston from last year that was at Vintage Upgrades, in person. The twin rollbars and the way in which they were mounted made ALL the difference in the outcome of that rollover.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

The twin rollbars and the way in which they were mounted made ALL the difference in the outcome of that rollover.

Does anyone have an opinon on whether dual roll bars are structurally superior, or inferior, to one full-width roll bar?

[jwd]

I agree with the above assessment of the Hurricane rollbar. I have no doubt in my mind that not only would it support the car in case of a rollover, you could easily lift the whole car by the rollbar.

Jim

[jwd]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Does anyone have an opinon on whether dual roll bars are structurally superior, or inferior, to one full-width roll bar?

If all the mounts are equal in strength, my bet would be the duals would be stronger. 6 mounting points vs. 4.

Jim

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by jwd

I agree with the above assessment of the Hurricane rollbar. I have no doubt in my mind that not only would it support the car in case of a rollover, you could easily lift the whole car by the rollbar.Jim

And as all of us Hurricane owners know, this is but of the MANY subtle but excellent features of our cars that have gone unnoticed because of the limited visibility of the brand in the market. But I think that's all about to change.