small block versus aluminum big block for racing?

[Dominik]

Andy,
I copied that link ...

Dom

[Sonny]

pcoghlan,
no matter what you'er told you can't beat cubic inches whether drag racing (a shortened road race) or full LeMans/Daytona type racing. If not GM could have never whipped the VIPER/GTSR and would have with a small block and the $231 million they spent to the point of giving up.

sonny

[Trans-Am Jim]

Sonny:

I'm with ya!

Take the winners in the last 2-3 years in International GT racing:
American LeMans, LeMans(ACO), Grand Am, FIA GT --
Viper GTS/R, Corvette C5, Saleen SR7, Lister/Storm --
All big blocks

The facts speak for themselves--

[cobrashoch]

Fellas- There is not a a bigger big block fan than myself. The question in this debate is what is the best engine for a COBRA, not Vipers. Saleens or what have you. As I stated above Cobras are built using a parts orthodoxy that dictates the results. The plain fact of the matter is unless you change that orthodoxy radically a Cobra platform cannot control 600 foot pounds of torque or more. As a example I use my drag car Cobra I am building. To make it handle the power my motor kicks out I've had to beef up everything with the net result being my car weighs in at 2800 lbs. After talking to Double Venom his results were the same as mine, using that Viper motor. He told me his car weighed in at 3000 lbs. There is no denying the advantages of big block power by ANYONE including the most ardant small block guy. The real question with big blocks and Cobras vs racing is , Is it worth it? Do you really want to go there? Where we are now I degrudgingly concede to the small block crowd with Cobras. Thats not to say that it can't be done with a bigon' though..................

cobrashock

[Trans-Am Jim]

Cobrashoch:

You're right about the initial question in this thread. What tends to happen tho in these sb vs.bb debates, is that folks start making statements about small blocks being the hot lash in road racing in general.
It's at that point that I tend to bring up the Vipers, Saleens, et.al.

If my piece were for racin' only, it'd have a 397 wid dem Yates heads

[Super-Snake]

Take the winners in the last 2-3 years in International GT racing:
American LeMans, LeMans(ACO), Grand Am, FIA GT --
Viper GTS/R, Corvette C5, Saleen SR7, Lister/Storm --
All big blocks

The facts speak for themselves--


__________________
Jimbo

Jimbo:

One thing you ignored in your observation.
what is powering the P900 and P675 class prototype cars? You know the ones spanking the **** out of all of the cars you listed.

The SMALL BLOCK, Audi R8's. Audi actually built their motors smaller than the rules allow.

In many occasions there is no excuse for horsepower. That holds especially true in cars driven by less experienced drivers. I have been consistantly beaten on the road course by guys with more horsepower and guys with less.

A friend I race with in the SCCA that runs an MGA smokes ex-Busch/NASCAR cars every weekend on road courses. His results are a matter of record. He is also in his 70's.

my .02

ssnake

[Trans-Am Jim]

>One thing you ignored in your observation.
>what is powering the P900 and P675 class prototype cars? You know the >ones spanking the **** out of all of the cars you listed.

But now you're talkin' non-production-based, 6-700 lbs lighter, and way (and I mean WAY) more aero stuff than GT

It's apples vs. watermellons.

[Super-Snake]

But now you're talkin' non-production-based, 6-700 lbs lighter, and way (and I mean WAY) more aero stuff than GT

It's apples vs. watermellons.
--------
good point. but look at a Saleen S7R's. they are purpose built, windtunnel tested, composite material based, race cars. they have aerodynamics, low weight, etc as well. they are similar.

also consider the arguments of supercharging/turbocharging versus larger displacement engines. i.e. turboed A8's versus the Panoz LMP1's larger displacement motors.

GT3R racecars by porsche (6's) in those series and the new BMW M3GTR's with the small displacement v8's. Overall the Porsches and BMWS have much more history and victories than any of the other production based racers regardless of engine displacements.

Porsche has consistantly favored small block powered, balanced cars to excel in cornerning and braking rather than overall grunt.

I can also post some results from PCA and SCCA racing in the NE. Look at the cars that run fast. Not all are big HP. When I run GT1R in PCA (the hottest PCA class) the guys in GT3S post the fastest lap times overall. The GT3 guys have street tires (as opposed to slicks), less aerodynamic aids, and smaller displacement engines. However, they continue to dominate in the results overall.

Also consider all condition driving. When the tracks conditions change due to dirt/oil/water, etc on them and in rain (heavy and light) the tolls turn in favor of the small block racers. High HP and Torque in any conditions other than perfect usually lead to quick disaster. or foreign debris in undergarments.

there are good points on behalf of both engines. its clear i prefer the small blocks for weight distribution and their quick spooling high revs. also love turbos.

-ssnake

winston cup- high HP 351's
mustang dragracers in the 7's and 8's- turboed or supercharged with or without nitrous 302's and 351's

TRANS-AM - do they use 351 blocks?

Shelby challenge series: 351's.

FFR Challenge series: 302 spec motors.

Jim: do you own a transam car? any pictures you can post?

[Trans-Am Jim]

>Jim: do you own a transam car? any pictures you can post?

SS: Heck, no. I'm a scrutineer with the Trans-Am series, though.
The TA cars run 311s, although 335 and 358 are allowed with carb and weight restrictions.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan of the SB myself. I just don't believe in the "absolutes" cuz there's always something that bites me on the a__ when I say "and this is the way it is".

Man, how did we get here from the first post

[RACER X #99]

Can you guys beat this horse any more?
Lets put 500 ci Pro Stock motors in those F1 cars, that will really make them faster.
Cranky

[Super-Snake]

sorry Cranky. its becoming the story of club cobra to constantly repeat old discussions. but we do learn more every time discussions are revisited by people that didn't participate in them the first time.

hey jim:

any pictures from the trans-am series you can post? two nights ago i watched a tape of the final street race in houston. can't wait for the season to start again.

i do love the mustangs with jaguar stickers on them. just something about gentilozzi that doesn't sit well with me. can't deny his talent but his personality...

wonder how many vipers will join archer come next season.
also can't underestimate Justin Bell now that he has figured out transam racin'.

-ssnake

[Trans-Am Jim]

>Lets put 500 ci Pro Stock motors in those F1 cars, that will really make them >faster.

Cranky:
With traction control legal in F1 now, that'd be quite a runner!

SS:
Sorry, no photos; we aren't allowed to have cameras with us on the job.
Paul G. ain't such a bad guy; just don't try to talk to him within 10 minutes of him getting out of the car- he gets wound pretty tight.

[Super-Snake]

jimbo:

that is true. the only time i have really see him speak is within 10 minutes of the finish of a race.

how about gentilozzi at the end of the houston race? a little heated, ey? i would be also. get tapped coming around the last corner and drop from 3rd to 5th. he still only got 4th or am i mistaken?

-ssnake

[Ant]

Here is food for thought - maybe!

There was a guy called Bruce McLaren and he built and raced these big Orange sports cars with up to 900bhp Injected 8 litre Reynolds Chevrolet V8 engines, and they absolutely demoralised everything for a few years in the 1960's, and even nowadays they are very fast at the classic meets, the smallblock Lolas and others couldnt compete against the light weight and large hp of these cars!

Techology obviously has come a long way since then, and I guess Rule #4 does come into the mix, smallblocks give a smoother power and less unbalancing of the car through the corners!

Currently contemplating an alloy FE for my circuit car as I think they will be less stressed, more resale value and still fun to drive, I cant quite get with the program on the smallblock stroker Ford, mind you I ran a nice 350hp 289 years ago and it was brilliant!

[Burgs]

3 1/2 year old thread,... back to the top!

[Anthony]

Huh,

I've been a member since 1999, and I don't remember any thread, ever, comparing big or small blocks.

[BANDIT 1]

There is no comparison, big blocks rule!

[cobrashoch]

Here we go again. After reviewing this whole thread over there's really not much more that can be added. We are still talking about Cobras aren't we? Not race cars.
In actual real time there has been some change in the last 3 or 4 years with Cobras though. A few high tech. versons have popped up into the horizon like JBL's and a few others. I personally haven't heard of any big block Cobras that go fast in twistys though, even with some of the new stuff out there.
In the 460 club cobra forum I gave some ideas of what you could possibly do to a 385 in a big vs small thread regarding the weight of engines.

cobrashock

[Cashburn]

fun...

reduce the weight, reduce the need for displacement. At some point you only need a rubber band.

[Jon Hallmark]

I have been laughing the last 30 minutes reading this thread and had to sign up just so I could throw my .02 in the hat. I've been racing different things since I was a kid and I have learned that no one setup is going to be the best for every situation. Hence the reason for F1 cars and rail dragsers.

Over the last few years of racing motorcycles and cars the one thing that I can say that I doubt many will disagree with is that the one thing that you can count on to win races is cubic dollars!