CSX7000 vs. Twin turbo (AWD) Porsche

[ST]

I was out at Las Vegas Motor Speedway on Sat. for the NASA races and watched an interesting matchup between a late model Porsche equiped with a twin turbo (425hp) & all wheel drive and CSX7013 with a crate 302 (320hp) and a three speed automatic trans.
Seven cars went out on the track (a one mile road course) First the Porsche next a Vette then a Boxter and followed by the CSX7000 and a couple of more Vettes.
Within 5 laps the CSX7000 had the lead and continued to increase it for the remainder of the race. I stood there at the wall along with Kris (SpecialK) and could not believe it.
Watching 40 year old technology (transverse front leaf spring) along with everything else totally destroy one of Germanys best.
BTW Both drivers were equal in skill being they were both instuctors so that was not a factor.
I got to tell you it was quite impressive and would have never believed it had I not witnessed it for myself.
Maybe there's something to this small block stuff.
I think Kris took some photos and I'll try to get him to post them.

[RACER X #99]

Their is no way the Porsche driver had the same skill levels as the Cobra driver. Or the Porsche driver was sandbagging for some reason.
I have seen those Porsches on the track at the Glen and those guys almost never lift.

Sorry, but I don't believe the Cobra beats the Porsche especially with a stock 302 crate motor. NFW

McCranky

And nobody loves the sb more than me.

[Specialk]

I would never have believed it myself unless I saw it. I went up to the Porsche driver after the session and he immediately started talking about how he had his street tires on, and he would be much faster with his race tires on. The porsche was a newer 911 twin turbo with AWD. It had big street tires and big cross drilled disk brakes. The interior was outfitted with a full cage, fire bottle, etc. The body was covered in ricky racer stickers. He said he was a NASA instructor. The Cobra was CSX7013 with Hoosier road race tires, a 320hp crate engine with 400 miles on it and a C4 automatic. It has been setup by Toms Motorsports, the same guys who did the Shelby Spec racers. Tom Bernard from Tom's Motorsports was driving.

It was amazing watching Tom spank the crap out of that Porsche. He worked his way up through the field, passed the 911 and then opened up a HUGE lead. No way in hell anybody was going to catch him. Cool stuff!

[ST]

Cranky,
Sorry but IT"S TRUE, at least this day!!!!
I don't make the news I just report it.

[Richard Hudgins]

Hi Folks,

Not really hard to believe.

CSX7000 320 hp X 2200 lbs? 6.875 lbs/hp Race tires.

Porsche TT 425 hp X 3480 lbs. 8.18 lbs/hp Street tires.

Race tires alone at LV (depending on track layout, I assume the normal one here.) should be worth 6>9 seconds a lap.

Plus as Chris stated, the CSX was set up by Tom's Motorsport. Therein, it is much closer to a race car then a street car.

The Porsche TT as delivered from the factory is a street car. Period. They are fast street cars, but not very quick track cars in stock form. Now if you do a bit of chassis work and lose all of the extra bits to get the weight down and put on Road race tires, the story may be a bit different.

[aumoore]

If you think that is impressve just race your cobra against a 150 hp 4 banger in a Lotus Super 7 on a track and you too might be humbled. Prformance is all about Hp to weight ratios and handling is mostly about weight. Most performance street bikes have under 120hp and they will turn 10 second 1/4 mile.

We had a Audi S4 Avant(german for station wagon)with a twin turbo V6 with a chip in it run againt our cobras at Gainesville's 1.6 mile flat road course and it was pretty impressive. He was running similar times to my 302 powered Cobra and I was the third fastest cobra there. I have changed out my anemic 2.73 rear gears and put in 3.73's so I will not have to downshift to first in the hairpin turns.

[Jamo]

Richard raises good statisical points, not to mention Tom's probably setting it up right, but I would still go along with Cranky on this--the AWD would make up alot for the tires in the corners...IF it wasn't for ST and SpecialK reporting the news. Hard to think of them as a couple of BS artists.

Wait a minute--ST and SpecialK......ok, real funny guys!

[ERA535]

I vote with Richard, ST, and SpecialK on this.

[Richard Hudgins]

Jamo,

The Porsche TT only pulls .92 on the skid pad. (Per Porsche) Four wheel drive does not improve cornering significantly on dry pavement.

It also does not improve braking. However, the TT brakes should be better than the CSX as far as raw stopping power, At least for a couple of laps. After that the higher weight of the TT starts to show itself with overheating of the brakes. This is certainly true at Willow in a stock TT. Three laps and the brakes are toast. (But the ABS is sweet!!!!)

Four wheel drive does help on corner exit as you are able to put the power on earlier and more aggressively.

Now, if it had been wet at LV, the TT would of run away and hid from everyone else. Particularly with treaded street tires.

[Jamo]

Oh I know you're right Richard--I've run my A6 4.2 Quattro enough times in autocrosses and at Willow Springs to know the heft (heck--I've got 300hp, but it weighs nearly 3900 lbs) will work the brakes harder (though the 4.2 is equipped with some big-a$$ed brakes), and cuts down on acceleration, though I am on the gas very early (SO3s help here too). Actually, AWD Porsches, even Turbos, don't do all that well autocrossing big courses against Vettes and Cobras.

I imagine the superior weight bias of the small block Cobra (versus a BB--assright, Cranky) makes it a better match against the Porsche in this case.

[wilf leek]

Aumoore - I second your comment about the Lotus 7 type cars - we have a huge number of these in the UK.

Last time I was on a track, those little bu$$ers were all over me like a rash at each and every corner. Was nice outdragging them down the straights though.
Eventually I made the mistake of trying to match them around the corners as well. Spin city. Several times.
I settled for annoying them on the straights and being humbled by them around the corners!

[Richard Hudgins]

Jamo,

The Audi A6 4.2 Quattro is a sweet piece. My neighbor has one and I have driven it a couple of times here on our little backroads.

Almost makes me want to get rid of the 928 S4 5 sp. and get one.

But the 928 is paid for.

[jrichard]

The Porsche driver must have been on Valium or something. I've owned two of them and seriously doubt a 302 could compete...

[Specialk]

I would be with the crowd that says the 911 should be able to run circles around the leaf sprung Cobra. But I have to believe Richard on this one. I know I was assolutely amazed!!!

[Mark Morrison]

I was lucky enough to ride in a 4wd twin turbo porsche. Did 6 hot Laps at SIR in Seattle with a pro driver. If I remember right we were doing about 165 at the end of the straight. the car was so stable and smooth I wouldnt have been afraid to change cd,s.It was good in the corners and tracked out very hard.If my cobra can beat that when its on the road next summer with 500 hp I will be one happy man.

[jrichard]

guys, it isn't sacrilige to admit that other cars can be faster than our beloved Cobras. If a Cobra outpaced a 911C4TT it's the driver's skill.

[Richard Hudgins]

Hi jrichard,

I understand what you are saying here. I have owned and raced Porsches since 1969. From 911's and 928's for personal street use, to 908's,911r's, 935's, and 956's for track use. They are, in my opinion the finest vehicles made for both road and track usage. I will defend them from a performance standpoint against virtually any other make of car. (Sports car, not formula cars.)

However, there are times when a another type of car will beat them. As was stated by aumoore, try to beat a Lotus super seven on a short track like the road course layout at LV. The super seven is like a Formula Ford. No chance.

There are factors here that are critical to the performance of the cars discussed in this thread at the LV road course.

they are:

1. Short track
2. No high speed corners
3. Street tires vs race tires
4. Power to weight ratios

Therefore,

1. the track requires a point and squirt, then stop type of car.

2. aero means nothing. Therefore, the Porsche doe not gain due to better aero design.

3. With race tires, you can hook up on exit, your braking will be better, and you will be quicker in the corners.

4. See number one. The leaf spring car is a point and squirt type chassis. It is flexible, which really helps put down power due to the type of setup and the weight transfer characteristics of the chassis. Plus it weighs at least 1000 lbs less.

There are some other points to consider. The 302 crate engine with 320 hp has about 310>330 ft-lbs of torque.

Couple this engine with a automatic which has a torque multplication of ( ? ) (at least 3 to 1) you are going to have a pretty serious piece exiting a corner.

Remember, the Chaparrals of Le mans and Can-am fame had automatics.

Now, you take the same two cars to a long fast track like Willow Springs and TT should be faster. Even on street tires.

However, when in Vegas, you have to go with the odds. The odds just happen to be better with the CSX7XXX in LV.

[jrichard]

having never been to LV I have to agree. Porsches (esp turbos) like hi-speed tracks.

[coyled]

the finish line cobra, at least the coil sprung version has extensive work done to the rear of the cobra to lower the roll centers. If they did the same work to the leaf sprung version, with slicks and a good driver, no porsche of equal power to weight ratio with street tires will catch it on a tight low speed course. The finish line cobra, out of the box, is probably the best handling cobra you can get. The cobra is way harder to drive at the limit. But, if you put any of us average drivers in a cobra and you put an average driver in the 911, the 911 will destroy the cobra on any course. Well set up and well driven, different story. scott.

[JGunn]

I was questioning the results, but I now see it could be quite possible.
It is very impressive!