Responce to Coyled

[Robert Evans]

My 351w is just a mild, warmed over mill that is putting out about 400-425 at the flywheel, and the rear wheel had about 345hp or so. Not a monster motor by any means, but it does do a low 12 in the 1/4 according to my G-Tech.

This same, lowly 351 has around 2,000 track miles at Willow, about 1,800 of it with a video camera, and not once is there any thing resembling a BB passing me. I have alot of video of me passing them, though. In fact, there is some footage of me following a guy in his BB Contemporary for about 4 laps, and he never pulled more than 3-4 car lengths on me down the long 1/2 mile front straight. By turn 2, I was all over him again. Funny thing about that incident is that about a week after I got home, I noticed that my vacuum secondaries were never opening; I was stuck on the primaries during the weekend at Willow!

All one has to do is check out the lap times that Gordon Levy was turning while driving Scott's car about a year ago...not only was he cornering faster than any BB out there, but he was passing them down the front straight too! No driver skills needed there.

I made a comment somewhere else about what Remington had said last week about the different 427's that were used in the Shelby's. Everyone there knew that the Nascar 427 was only good for racing long, Stock Car types of events where there was very little load put on the engines. He said that they didn't like the start/stop type of racing found in sports car racing. They put production 427's in the regular Cobras which were sold thru Shelby, not the Nascar 427's.

When it came time to test a 427 for the Gt Fords, they had to basically start from scratch. Some had aluminum heads, a dry sump oil system, a reinforced bottom end, and hundreds of hours of testing on the dyno making the thing live for an extended period of time. They even had to detune it down to about 475 hp and keep the redline down to about 5,300 or so. Their biggest fears were that the Chevrolet guys would run rabbit and smoke them because they were putting out about 100hp more and doing it with reliability in the Chaparrals. Their weak link was the auto-box.

[RACER X #99]

Wayne,
Too bad those BB guys posting over on the other thread don't come over here. They would surley be surprised at the hp numbers you posted but would not beleive you anyway. I like to call them BB Drones, all programed to beleive that if you have the original type engine you will have the ultimate/fastest Cobra.
Crankster

[RACER X #99]

Bob,
I have a bone stock 351/385 hp crate engine in my Contemporary Track Turd. I have about 5-6,000 mostly track miles on this engine and I consitantly run it up to 6,250. So far the only BB I can't keep up with is our Club Cranky member a427sc.aka,McFez,
aka,Don Durner.He has a few more hp than me but a lot more track time.And if I never out run him I don't care because he lets his car and driving do the talking and not a bunch of BS out of his mouth. Not all BB guys are bad guys.(maybe one of these days he will come over to our side).
Time to go check the other thread.
Crankster

[mr bruce]

man ,this will never end. The real question is what's a better design. a garbage truck moter from the '50s or the moter out of aunt Millie's Granada,or a purpose built racing engine that can run 70 laps at the Glen or Sears PT ,full throttle ,downshifting,etc.

[Robert Evans]

I just dug up a book written back in the early 80's with some paragraphs by John Christy about his experiences with a 289 vs. the 427 on the racetrack. It's too long to do right now, but I'll post what he had to say later. Quite interesting reading.

[RACER X #99]

Bruce,
This is our Racing forum and we can talk all we want about racing and engines. Those guys over at the other thread never come here and we don't have to put up with their sillyness.
We already talked about real racing engines here. Now we are talking about how our Grenada engines are faster than their garbage truck engines.

Mccranky

BTW August 19,20 at the Glen. You coming?

[mr bruce]

Sir Cranky, "I'm already there" what's on the menue?

[coyled]

Bob and Roger, I was 4 seconds faster than Gordon was in his cobra versus me in my cobra at Road America. No doubt that he could drive anything cobra faster than me though. 10 seconds faster than any big block cobra. These 351's run pretty well. Funny thing is, that the rod to stroke ratios of the windsor are very similar to that of the 396 chevy. Now, if you want lots of power on a road course and want it to stay together, the big block chevy is in a class by itself. The yates heads on my motor look identicle to the big block chevy head, stolen for sure. I just got back from seating in the new pads on the cobra which is always fun with my worthless street tires. Bob, are you going to the willow springs event this fall? scott

[Turk]

Note to self!
....don't!

TURK

[RACER X #99]

Turk,
Smart move.

Crankster

[mr bruce]

Scott, you're one of the few that see's my point about the Chevy moters. The Cleveland/ Yates/SVO style head looks close in design to a BB Chevy. (better,even spacing on the intake side,rather than siamesed intake ports on the Chevy) The moter don't know what name is on the valve cover,it's only an air pump). You got to get the rite combo. (rod ratio, bore/stroke, cam ,etc.) Then you got to get that power to the ground ,with the Cobra's tire limitation.and it's squirrly 90" wheelbase.

[John McMahon]

Turk,

Nice new signature line .....but the old adage, "There's no replacement for displacement" went away with the Ford Pinto.

[Wayne Maybury]

I'm completely bumbed (sp?) out. John caught me overstating the out put of my engine.

OK OK Now the truth, so help me God. It actually only developed 471.8 HP at 6200 rpm. I rounded it up to 472, do I get 40 lashes with a wet noodle? On that pull, the torque was 441.2 lbs at 4700 rpm but on another pull it was 448.1 lbs at 4800 rpm. Peak HP on that pull was waaaaay down to only 468.1 .

Believe it or not, the Ford SVO "N" heads were just cleaned up and polished, not really ported at all. Since this engine is intended for 99.99% use on the street, I chose a dual plane Performer RPM intake so the HP numbers could easily have been quite a bit higher with the heads ported and a single plane intake. The dyno doesn't lie.

Oh by the way there is an E M Cobra near here that has a 500? cu. in. Dove FE in it. This guy has spent a fortune on the engine and has rarely done more than a couple of hundred miles without a major problem. The engine has been pulled out of the car many, many times. This is a street machine, not a race car, I doubt that it would last very long on the track. I believe that he now has something like $30K US in the engine.

Wayne

[Robert Evans]

While I don't have the exact lap times right in front of me, I do remember seeing them and hearing the discussion that took place about lap times between Dan Gerber and Bill Murray last year at Road America rught after practice.

Road America is definitely a BB track, one that rewards top end HP because of the very, very long straights. During practice, I remember Dan Gerber was posting lap times in the 2:32-.34 range every lap...very consistent times each and every lap. Gerber was driving a 289 Comp. Cobra which had been a static display at the Shelby museum, so it's not a modern, all out race-every-weekend type of car. Gerber also hadn't sat behind the wheel of a racecar for over 20+ years.

Bill Murray was driving a 427 Comp. Cobra from the museum, and was pitted with Gerber. Murray races several times a year, and has driven this particular car many times. At first, Murray was way off the pace with some bump-steer problems, so his times were much slower. By the end of the day, Murray was running competitively with times right up there with Gerber. I believe that Murray turned one lap about 1 second faster than Gerber at about 2:31+. However, his lap times were all over the state. Some of his times varied by as much as 4-5 seconds...this during the exact same session as Gerber.

What this tells me is what I've believed all along and consistent with everything I've read. The ultimate Cobra is really no better than the Cobra it replaces. It is fast, but not faster. All of Murray's speed came from running faster on the straights, not nearly as quick thru the corners, where Gerber really shined. Going thru the carousel turn, Gerber was driving with one hand on the wheel and even took the time to wave "Thanks" to a driver who allowed him to pass in the middle of this fast corner, while Murray was fighting the car between understeer and oversteer. I know, I have that practice session on video tape and have watched it many times.

So, a 35 year old 289 with a driver who hasn't raced since the early 1970's did just as well on a BB track as a seasoned vintage racer in a 427 Cobra...the lap times for all intents and purposes were identical, but Gerber was much more consistent.

Now, the Porsche's were a different story.....they blew every one away. That was the ultimate small block that day.

[RACER X #99]

Bruce,
I don't know this for a fact but I have heard or read that the engineer that designed the Cleveland Head was the same engineer involved with the BB Chevy head. I do know the Ford and GM employed many of the same engineers but of course not at the same time.

I'll take an order of ribs please,

Crankster

[a427sc]

I usually don't like to chime in much on these "debates". But one small fact seems have been overlooked. During the Cobra era at Shelby American, the primary focus, Job #1 so to speak, was to fund and develop race cars. Everything else , street cars, accessories, whatever, was done for the sole purpose of supporting the race effort. In 63, Shelby realized that the small block Cobra had reached the end of effective development with the technology and pieces available (like the small 289 motor, the leaf spring chassis, and the non-aero body). So they exploited the FIA's modified body rules to build the Daytona Coupe, but the writting was on the wall for the chassis and 289 power plant. They needed more horsepower to compete on the long tracks in Europe with the much more modern Ferrari's and their V-12's. What to do? Use the well developed NASCAR 427, and build a better chassis. Ok, the NASCAR motor ended up needing redevelopment for road racing, but the basics were there and it did make more HP. It was all Ford had at the time. Deep down, Shelby knew the 427 cobra roadster was just a front to get to the 427 Daytona he knew he needed. Politics with the GT program effectively shut him down, but the idea was sound.

The point...the 427 roadster was never meant to be the ultimate race Cobra, just a stepping stone to the ultimate FIA Production race car.

McFEZ

BTW Cranky and Scott and Big Bob...Isn't it about time you stop bragging how wonderful your choice of motors is. Someone might think you all were major full of your self.

[RACER X #99]

McFez,
Give us a brake will you. We give you plenty of credit for sticking with the FE and doing a good job too. You are not the target of our barbs and we certainly are not trying to get you to change engines. The people we target are the know it alls with the other motors who seem to have all the answers, yet never seem to show up at an event , even to watch.
So lighten up McFez you are taking are jesting to personel.

Crankster

[mr bruce]

what is red, has 4 wheels and fly's?

[Robert Evans]

McFez,

First of all, I am an admirer of you...You and Mac Archer have done someting that no other 427 driver have done, and that's to be commended. You have taken your car to the next level.

Now, you are right about the 289's being obsolete and were really on borrowed time...they just lucked out because GM wasn't involved more extensively in racing .

You hit the nail on the head when you say that the 427 was just a front for anything else Shelby wanted to do. The car was never intended to be an all conquering racecar, but it was built to satisfy the consumer market...I know because I got that right from the horses's mouth. (...but, some people don't want to believe that.)

The reason that this whole thing has gone as long as it has is because the BB proponents here toot the horn of the ultimate Cobra...something that is faster than a speeding bullet, able to leap tall buildings, etc., etc. They have this notion that the 427 was the killer racecar that never got a chance to succeed, when in fact it was no better than the obsolete dinosaur 289 Comp. Cobra that preceeded it.

I never said that the 289 was the ultimate racecar, just that it was the preferred "Cobra" as a racecar. Everyone at Shelby knew that the roadster was an ill-handling pig of a car...that's why the Coupe was born so quickly in 1964.

I ask some of the 427 guru's here; If Shelby American knew by 1964 that the 289 roadster was an aerodynamic disaster and had reached its speed limit with the small block, (hence, the Coupe again) why in the world would anyone put a bigger engine in the thing with nearly the exact same aerodynamically-challenged body shape as before??? What good would that do?...It would just make matters worse!

That's because it was supposed to be used as a street car all along, not a racecar, which is what I've been saying.

And, I'm not tooting my horn over my choice of engines, just the choice of which Cobra was the more successful of the two. If I wanted to go fast on a race course, I certainly would not be driving either one of these two beasts. That's why my car will never again see pavement that resembles a racetrack.

BTW, the 427 Coupe was DOA long before Pete Brock knew it was DOA. Read the Daytona Coupe book for some very interesting turns of events which lead to its' demise. There was never a chance that it would ever turn a wheel on a track.

[a427sc]

I know your posts are not aimed at me, and I appreciate being named in the same breath as Mac Archer. I also know that it was getting a little over the top with everybody constantly "preaching to the choir". My grandfather told me something once that seems to apply here re: the "know-it-alls". He said "before you get all hot and bothered over something, consider the source.

Bob

You ask why would they put a bigger motor in essentially the same aero body? More HP to get more speed (sounds like a little California Hot Rod talk). The coil spring chassis did have more potential, and development work never got off the ground. And the body had a lot of improvement potential as well, the first design having lots of faults (like interior cooling), and downforce v drag ideas were also starting to develop.

Just wanted to cool things down a little, being on the "other" side and all.

I don't take much personally, unless that G** D**m McMahon tries to get over again on my baby, Foam-Etta!!!!!

McFEZ