Responce to Coyled

[bmalone]

Cranky:

The Cleveland (335 motor) was produced in '71, '72, and '73. It is really very similar to the 385 (429/460) motors which started production in '68. They share a skirtless block, canted valve heads, and the same oiling system.

It has often been said that the 385 is a direct copy of a chevy BB, though. So, it is kind of true they both share many similarites w/ Chevy motor.

Bill

[John McMahon]

Fez,

When will you learn Foam-Etta' is my girl?????? Where were you when she needed a little lovin? Well, you were out messing with that stupid inflatable wench...what was her name???? Oh yeah...Air-i-elle. You were lip locked in her little inflatable nipple. You perv.

As far as engine choice goes, (with my limited engine history....I am not an expert...I merely play one on TV) I believe in some cases, the SB offers nearly the same power as the BB in a better balanced beast. Maybe not as much torque, but it handles better. But that does not say that the BB doesn't kick a$$ with the right man behind the wheel.

You McFez, are that man! I give you a lot of credit for driving that pig as harshly as you do.

[Jamo]

Definitly a good thread.

[Robert Evans]

I like this particular forum because it seems to have some sort of a built in filter...the waxer guys aren't coming in here to squirt off at the mouth with just a bunch of myths. We seem to be able to talk more sensibly here.

Fez;
One of the neat things about being able to talk with those who were "right there" when this was all coming down, is that they are very unbiased with their opinions. The Shelby guys were VERY glad to see the Cobra program come to a halt so they could get onto more important things like building real racecars, and Rem for one simply finds it fascinating that this piece of crap for a sports car has caught the attention of so many people! He hated the thing, especially when his ideas to improve the new 427 were shot down in flames in favor of budgets and available production capabilities.

Can you imagine how demeaning it must have been for him to have been on top of the sports car world with his work with Reventlow and the Scarabs in real modified racing??...only to find out that now you have to take this flimsy little ****box of a British car that was outdated to begin with, put in some new unproven cast iron small block Ford engine in it and make it work?

Even Dan Gurney, upon his first test of the 260 prototype Cobra said that the Corvette guys had nothing to fear in the Cobra. It was thru his determination that the car became what it was eventually.

You want to know where the Cobra places in Remington's list of his acheivements?? Cal Metal and I are in possession of almost all of his old scrapbooks and old photos of his past. He has photos of his Ford GT's and Daytona Coupes at LeMans and Sebring and Daytona, he has photos of his work with Indy and CART cars, he has photos of his work in GTP, he has photos of his work with Scarabs, he has photos of his days racing on the dry lake beds of So. Cal., he even has photos of his trek around the world for Ford. Nowhere does he have any photos of his work on the Cobras. Does that tell you anything?

[Evan H.]

I lost my note to myself and got through the filter so here goes.

Bob: I understand what you are saying and it makes some sense. However, why then was SAI trying to homologate the 427 for the FIA. Was the plan to get the 427 homologated and then build limited Daytona 427's to take advantage of the FIA modified body rules? That seems like it could have been a plan.

I suspect that the reason they kept the body style similar to the 289 despite its aero dynamics was the fact that the Cobra at that time was well known due to its previous success and they wanted to maintain its basic shape, yes probably for sales purposes and to maintain recognizability. After all the 427 was designed from scratch after using 289 prototypes. If they wanted a pure "racer" they could have designed anything. But wasn't the idea behind the FIA GT competition to put production cars against one another not special dedicated racers? I thought it was anyway.

While I can't speak for others on the "other side" I will speak for myself. My point is simple. Modern SBs benefiting from development undoubted do make very good track engines. In many cases they can be made to easily make as much power and at times more than a BB. BB's however, not having the benefit of nearly as much development seem to acquit themselves very well at competitive track events and many times best the SBs. Not bad for garbage truck engines.

Finally, while I understand the competition in the SCCA was not what it would be in the FIA the skill level between drivers in their respective racing bodies probably had comparable skill to each other. So, assuming the 427 was homologated what would have been its competition in the FIA? What was the 427's competition in the SCCA? Just curious.

Although I do not "race" my car and for the time being have no desire to, if I were to "race" it would be in something other than a Cobra. Probably a Porsche 911 or M3 with full roll cage protection. They are just as fast and safer on the track.

Finally, its seems that your friend "Rem" basically takes the position that the Cobra was just a piece of $hit and is amazed at the complete success of the car and its timeless appeal. Maybe "Rem" is and was too wrapped up in pure race cars to appreciate what the little peice of $hit of a car accomplished. Maybe the Cobra wasn't the best race car or the best car period. But it possessed a magic that is unquantifiable and still does. Despite its flaws it became one of the worlds most famous cars instantly recognizable not only by racers but by the average person. Can't say as much for the Daytona, Ford GT or especially the Scarab.

In the end its the Cobra that won out even with all its flaws. Its the only one that continues to transend generations and maintains wide spread appeal like no other car. Not bad for a peice of $hit.

[coyled]

Evan, first hand information is different then hearsay. Small blocks generally make more power than big blocks and at times big blocks can make more power. Big blocks do not "many times, beat the small block". In fact it is usually the opposite, small blocks are faster 90% of the time. This is first hand information based on my track time and being at the track watching lap times and drag races down long front straights like willow springs or road america. There are a few fast big block guys like McFez that have there combo dialed in but not many. If you go to a track event even to watch, you would understand what Big Bob, Cranky and I are talking about. History, car shows and authenticity, I have no clue. scott

[Jeff Frigo]

My turn:

No doubt that most small blocks are faster at the road track, but how many of us bring our cars to the there? I can't believe it has taken close to 300 posts between both threads for somebody as stupid as me to bring this up.

A big block will always be more enjoyable to drive on the street than a high strung small block. The more torque and the lower the rpm that this happens at is what makes this fun. 98% + of us do not go to the road race track on this forum.

Don't take this wrong, I am truly a small block fan (Chevy that is). I worked for Chevy V-8 engine for 4 years. That plant produced 5,500 small blocks a day!

Only stating the facts: Big block for the street and drag strip, small block for road course.

[RACER X #99]

Jeff,

Nobody ever said a 427 was a lousy car ,street ,track or otherwise. Too many BB owners scoff at the idea that a sb can and usually does beat a BB on the track. When one is at a car show and the hoods are all open, it is the BB with the two carbs and all the shiney stuff that the fans are impressed with. After all isn't that why the show guys are there? Nobody ever suggested to replace the existing BB with a sb for street cruising. Knoweledgable Cobra fans just don't scoff at the sb.
I think most guys would rather have a FE for a pure street cruiser, including myself but I have had both and for the track I will stick with the SB.

Crankster

BTW for you street only guys please stop using up our valuable, racing only computer space for your monologues.

[a427sc]

Bob

Rem was, is and will always be a RACER!!! And in true racer form, only the latest, most modern, state of the art-push the envelope cars, parts, and ideas warrant any attention. Nothing is worth less than an out of date race car, especially if your dealing in the rare air of prototypes and purpose built cars. The Sh!t B0x Cobra was out of date by about 8 years when it was born. But, as a production racer, IN IT'S ERA, it wasn't so bad. Goes to show if the right people spend enough time and $, even a pig can be made to fly.

Scott: Evan is using results from the NERC as the basis for his arguement that BB will beat SB' on track often. As with any fact, there is often the circumstances surrounding it that affect the result. In this case, the NERC lies in a hot bed of BB road racing cars, and a dearth of track prepped SB's. A small sample, in a local arena. I would like to see the results from R&G, at least the road racing venue, to compare. Then again, Maybe some (not me) BB guys have more $ and can afford to go to these events, skewing the results.

Jeez, I'm agreeing with EVAN, I better go take a pill or sumthin.


McF

[BANDIT 1]

The crazy thing about everyone talking trash (or trash truck...) on the big blocks is this.

1. You all say all FORD big blocks suck and that the only good big block is a Chevrolet, however then you guys say a 429/460 is almost a "copy" of the big block Chevrolet.

2. You all prove your point by talking trash about the big blocks by using the FE engines as your examples, if I would have wanted a 427 FE engine in my Cobra I would have put the 427 FE engine I already had in my PRO STREET 69 Mach 1 in it. I have always said that the 429/460 engines were the Ford big block of choice today, period.

3. Most big block owners don't care what engine is in someone elses Cobra, we just are tired of hearing someone at the Cobra events say how there 500 horsepower small block is going to kick the $hit out of any other Cobra at the event (last I saw a 650 horsepower Cobra is faster than a 450 Cobra, i'm no math expert but it makes sense to me).

4. I posted the BEST time my friend did with several passes on my car with several different things tried with the car (this is a guy that drag races all of the time (69 Camaro) and a race team that races several cars including Funny Cars and Dragsters). Someone on this thread made it sound like I was with some friend of mine (insurance salesman or something) and I told him to put down his hot dog and run my car down the track and on the first and only pass he ran a 10.47 and we went home.

5. I never said I was a pro race car driver (at this time I can't afford to race and tear up the car), like it or not I am a street racer that kicks the $hit out of any small block Cobra I have raced yet (I didn't have the car built for racing other Cobra's, however if they want to talk $hit you can find me on a empty hiway at 2 - 3 am on a Friday or Saturday night). Any of you RACE CAR drivers beat a Suzuki GSXR-1000 motorcycle yet?

[Robert Evans]

YOU GUYS, QUIT BRINGING UP THE DA*N DRAG RACING ASPECT OF THIS THING! WE ARE NOT DEBATING YOU WHEN IT COMES TO DRAG RACING. WE ARE NOT DEBATING YOU WHEN IT COMES TO WHICH MOTOR IS MOST AUTHENTIC IN A 427 COBRA. WE ARE NOT DEBATING THAT BB'S CAN MAKE ALOT OF HP.

What we are debating (at least I am) is that in 1963-1965, the 427 Cobra was no better as a RACECAR, DO YOU HEAR ME, A RACECAR ON A ROADCOURSE!!!!!, than the Comp. 289 that it was supposed to replace. Today, at NERC, at Willow, at whereever, it is still not the "Super-Cobra" that the BB guys think it is!!! I am telling you from firsthand, not hearsay experience, that someone who was acually the father of the racing Cobra says it's a piece of crap. Always was, always will be with regard to what they built in 1965. Why do you think the car was DOA so early?? It would not sell!!! It couldn't be homologated because no one would buy enough of the things to qualify for homologation. My business experience tells me that there must be a demand for something before it can be manufactured. THERE WAS NO DEMAND! They sat with flat tires at LAX with no purchase order in sight!! Why do you think they only produced 348 of them??? It wasn't until the replica builders resurrected the Cobra a few years later that the Cobra caught on again.

Today, people like Mac Archer and Fez have gone beyond what anybody else has done with the 427; they have fine tuned them and made them work. BUT THEY ARE STILL NOT THAT MUCH BETTER THAN THE CAR THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO REPLACE!!! ON A ROADCOURSE, NOT ON A DA*N DRAGSTRIP!!! I CONCEDE THAT THE 427, 460, 514, WHATEVER IS THE BEST DRAG MOTOR AVAILABLE, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT WORKS ON A ROADCOURSE!! The 427 was the ultimate muscle car on the street for quite some time because of it's straight-line capabilities, BUT AS A RACECAR, IT WAS A PIECE OF CRAP. PERIOD!

Evan, I have yet to see a phone number from you so I could have discussed this matter personally. I am not willing to sit here all afternoon typing a dictionary length book about why the 427 was not successful based upon those who wrote about it and were there firsthand. I'm not willing to waste any more of my time on this subject anyway. This is it. We will never persuade anybody here. I just suggest that you go buy some REAL Cobra books about the history, not just the ones with all the pretty pictures. (It appears as though the name Remington is new to you. The books with words in them will explain who he is.) Beware, most of the books about Shelby American are about their RACING HISTORY, so you won't find too much written about the 427's there. If thats what you're looking for, go find some nice books on the musclecar era.

[mr bruce]

We at Club Cranky are NOT street racers. We don't drag race. if we do we will do it on a drag strip. Please don't brag about your street racing.

[coyled]

Mcfez, Evan was not at nerc so he may not know the whole story. I was not at run and gun but the 2 fastest road raced cobras were small blocks, again I was not there so I don't know the whole story. I have been to willow springs 3 times and road america twice. At road america the small blocks were way faster as a group then the big blocks, first hand info. Jeff, drag racers need hook up period, more important then the motor. On the street, in a light car with fuel injection, the small block is just as tractable as a carbed big block. Come to phoenix and you can drive mine. Bandit, You may have the fastest cobra in the world and if you could beat me down a straight on a race track once we hook up, I would be happy for you that your cobra is really fast and would tell everyone. But I am really, really curious as to how you ran 10.47 on street tires. I have drag raced a lot and know how hard it is to hook up street tires. Your friend may be a pro driver but it is still very hard to do. What was your mph? Now, if you are running a dot tire or slick, with all that power, 10.50's are likely. You would have beaten everybody else by at least a 1 second at run and gun. So, tell us how you and your buddy did it? I am replacing my bald bfg ta street tires so I want to know what to replace them with. If your tires can hook up a big block they can surely hook up my small block. I made one pass a year ago at the drag strip on the bfg's and was booted. 11.68 at 129mph, 2.3 60 ft. No traction till 80 mph, then full throttle. So, give us the facts. scott

[John McMahon]

What I don't understand are people that think racing on the street entitles them to bragging rights when you can do it in a controlled, safe (as safe as it gets!) environment on the track.

Yet, many refuse to go to the track. Why?

Yup...I've done it too, but since I was introduced to the Dark Side and become a track weenie, I'll nenevr race again on the streets. I have learned way too much to risk it all on the street.

[BANDIT 1]

A couple of comments,

I never was bragging about my 1/4 mile times, I was responding to a thread asking about big block 1/4 mile times. I made a mistake on what rear tires I had on, they were Mickey Thompson "street" tires. My friend said the best the Dunlop's that came on the car did were low 11's. As far as the "street racing" comments, don't tell me none of you have had a Viper or some Corvette pull up next to you and you didn't punch it for 2 - 3 car lengths and then have a clear winner. You all have been watching to much "Fast and Furious" type movies if you try to compare what I do to some kids racing 2 - 3 miles at high speeds. When a 650 horsepower Cobra "smokes the tires" at 45 + mph, most 405 horsepower Corvettes or 460 horsepower Vipers tend not to want to play anymore.

P.S. I think an aluminum 460 powered Cobra can road race just fine...

[xcessive1]

cranky,
boy this is a interesting thread!!! i became a believer in the sb deal we i was helping my uncle vintage race in so cal bout 7-8 years ago. we had a mid 60's brabham with a warmed over 2liter,i'm guessing 200hp,that terrorized the 550-650hp lolas and other big iron at willow. it helped that he was a good driver. we could eat the big cars alive in the corners and get ahead but they would scream past us on the sraightaways.

it was funny to hear these guys in the pits,*****n bout how the little brabham harassed em. i'm with ya on the reliable,light weight and balance on a road course!!!!!

chris

p.s.-i'm a windsor beliver,the guys at car shows look at me funny when i tell em its a windsor,i just smile and walk away,thinking "these guys have no clue i make 400rwhp and 400lbft of torque". thats with the wrong cam and intake combo also!!!!

[RACER X #99]

Bob Evans,
You spoke too soon.
You barely got finished with your post yesterday and look who chimed in with the same old rambling BS.
Correct me if I am wrong but since we all moved the racing talk to the proper forum you seem to be posting like a year or so ago. A lot more and some genuine real information. I sure hope he goes away so that some of the other racer types will once again be posting over here. We have heard all of his nonsense way too many times and I for one had thought I had escaped from his preponderense for pomposity.(I thought that up all by myself)
Without mentioning any names he knows who he is and I hope he stays away, REAL far away.

Keep that info coming Bob,

Crankster

[BANDIT 1]

Robert Evans:

I guess were on the same page, there are several different discussions going on. I was not discussing the 1960's 427 Cobra as a good or bad race car, I was defending a "modern" Cobra with an all or mostly aluminum 460 engine with modern suspension, brakes, tire size and technology, etc. as being a car that is more than capable of road racing and being reliable at it (just my .02).

[coyled]

Bandit, that mickey Tompson street tire is an et drag tire. It is a street legal tire basicly a dot approved, with grooves, slick. I used to run on the road course a hoosier dot street tire, which are basically a grooved slick. Never the less, a 10.47 is fast period. I want to sneak out this winter and make a pass with slicks. I know they will only give me 1 pass but if I ran in the 10's at 130 mph, I would be happy. scott

[Jamo]

..but if some folks would simply READ Bob's posts (meaning reading for comprehension), you would realize that drag racing and street racing are not "racing" as it is being discussed here. You want to go in a straight line or just boil tires, any lightweight chassis will do (Vegas, Pintos)--even rice rockets.

Racing, as the full term is being used here involves acceleration, braking, handling--the total package.

Frigo--as I responded on the other thread--even streets differ. My streets are the foothills of the Sierra Nevada--not the flat, straight stretches of the mid-west. In the hills, give me a small block anyday. But I digress, if you want to go to Willow Springs, Buttonwillow, etc.--you'd better bring an SB.