Single hoop Cobras banned from the tracks

[DanElam]

Originally posted by klayfish

I will do more research into the local NASA chapter here. I haven't even considered it until recently, so I don't know anything about it.

One thing I really liked about PDA was that passing was only allowed in certain areas, with point bys. That way I knew someone was passing me, or the person I was passing knew I was there. I expect to have spins. I just don't have the $$$ to have an incident, then do an interview in my best southern accent and say "Rubbin's racin'".

Your car looks great. I don't go to shows to win a trophy. Hell, I never hang out until the end. Given a choice between going racing or to a show, well, it wouldn't even be a "choice". I just like to go to a cruise here and there and hang out. I find it relaxing from time to time.

NASA is putting together a chapter in Ohio, but a number of guys from PA come down to play with us in NASA-VA. Plus, we are running at Beaver Run this year outside of Pittsburgh. NASA-Northeast just got a new management team to run the show there, but they are focused on autox for now, not racing.

One thing about NASA is that they have these driving schools. For novice and intermediate, you aren't allowed to pass without a point by and even then on certain sections of the track and on certain sides - regardless of what the point-by says. Advanced is
pass anywhere with a point-by. It is similar to PDA. With NASA-VA in particular, we just haven't had too many problems and none with cars touching each other. We did have the Viper get crunched in Advanced who pushed it too hard. That was the same guy in the Cobra/Viper video from a few weeks ago.

http://www.elams.org/Racing/2002/Ker...iper_small.mpg

Other than that guy, I can't think of a car that actually hit something in a NASA school. (The crunched Cobra from VIR was a Speedtrial school).

I did see Rusty makes those comments the other night. That was pretty funny. Someone else would have been more upset, but Rusty has done enough rubbin' to know that it would have been disingenuous on his part. Keep in mind that his damage probably totaled less than $250. A really hard bump on fiberglass will cost more. (That is one reason why NASA-VA has worked so hard to protect the Cobras. Our director was running a Cobra from the last two years.)

BTW, our car doesn't compete in the car shows. It has way too many little things that kep it from looking like Earl or Al's cars! :-)

[John McMahon]

Steve,

Dan is correct about NASA...we run occasionally with NASA at Summit Point Raceway in WV. I have friends that run there every chance they get, its a good school, cheap and the offcamber Dogleg in Turn #4 will make you crazy!

Great group, same as PDA and other Driver Education Schools.

JM

[Ant]

I built my car to go racing and it has a single hoop homologated roll bar, with forward brace down to the main chassis on the passengers side, the bar is mounted on a strong part of the chassis!

The roll bar is made out of very strong material as per the regulations here in New Zealand, and I would argue that a full hoop bar is safer than a single hoop, I dont intend and wouldn't take a passenger out on the ciruit with a single hoop bar, so from the point of view of driver tuition for the newcomer - great I am all for safety!

My point is if you are not going to take a passenger then why do you have to change for racing - "You dont race with a passenger" what a load of cr*p.

[Carroll DeWeese]

I has an SPF with dual roll bars and a hardtop but no roll cage. I have full 5 point racing harnesses on both driver and passenger sides. I am going to the Boundurant Grand Prix Racing School next week to learn how to drive.

I thought the issue was not only having roll bars but having sufficient height and strength. I am under the assumption that the roll bar needs to be 3 inches higher than the driver's helmet to meet most racing rules for open cockpit cars. None of the "period correct" Cobras have roll bars that are tall enough whateve their strength.

I do not plan to race but I would like to open track my Cobra in the future. Is a "period correct" dual roll bar and full racing harness for both seats and a hardtop sufficient for open track?

[aumoore]

Why does a coupe offer more protection than a roadster? Very few of the Coupes have a strong enough structure to protect the driver in the event of a roll over at speed. I like to drive my cobra on a road course but not in real competition. We do this at the Gainesville test track and there is no passing, two cars on the track at one time with about 1/2 track between them. This track has large runn off areas with no barriers to hit. We set it up so that speeds are under 100 and you actually average around 60mph.

I agree that the single hoop or full width hoop is not enough for real car to car racing but for test sessions with 1 to two cars spaced around the track they are pretty good. If you want to realy go racing a Cobra Replica is not the best choice.

IMHO driving these cars on the street is more dangerious than a race track. I doubt my roll bar will help much if I get rear ended by a cement truck. With the overhang these beasts have my head will be the second thing th ebumper hist after squashing the three point roll bar.

[terry lee]

Carroll,
I have had several discussions regarding height of roll bars on SPF's and the upcoming VIR event with both Mike Stenhouse and the Olthoffs. The following is Mike's responce:
THE RULES SAY ALL PARTICIPANTS WILL BE REQUIRED TO PASS THE "BROOM STICK
TEST" FOR "ALL CLASSES".

"The "low speed runs" are (1) the autocross and (2) the highway speed
instructional laps on the track. The "high speed" events are the sessions
on the track including all classes. All drivers running on the track at
speed in all classes will be required to pass the broomstick class. The
requirement is a VIR requirement. It is a requirement of a growing number of
tracks as well. It is a fact of life for track events.

As Dennis has noted, once you have been to a track event, you will be back.
So you will get to use the taller rollbar many times.

I have ducal chromed roll bars, which were a significant investment. I am
going to either leave the taller roll bar in place or go to full width for
street safety as well. It is part of the price of performance."

I ordered a taller single bar steup for my side only last week. What next?
TL

[flipper35]

Here is a question since I was considering a second hoop. If I remove both single hoops and replace it with a full width bar (with an angle brace, halo, forward brace, etc) would it qualify since it would be bolted it? I don't mean with a slip joint and set screw like some of the factory. Could I use that for the track and then bolt the single hoops back in for the street?

[Carroll DeWeese]

If anyone is building a Cobra, I recommend two hoops. This way the holes are in the fiberglass or aluminum body are already in place for later putting a full width or other type of single hoop roll bars in the car. That was my plan with my SPF. I do not have to mess up the body to retro different roll bar combinations in the future.

I note that the hardtop limits the height of the roll bars. I like the hardtop, but I like having the option to take it off. At a future point, I may have to custom fit some roll bars that still allow the hardtop but provide more protection.

I am not sure that the hardtop provides much protection, but it does provide some. It should help some in the case of a roll over, especially with dual roll bars to help support it with the roll over. The hardtop also should help keep arms more in the car in a crash. When racing, arm restraints would do an even better job.

I believe anyone serious about safety in these cars needs to install a racing fuel cell, even for the street. The bumpers will not stop much more than a bump and anything hitting the back end of the Cobra should penetrate alot. Normal cars have spare tires and other features which help cushion the impact. Any serious rear end impact in a Cobra is likely to rupture the gas tank. A fuel cell should help keep the gas inside and fire away for at least awhile.

[Mike Braddock]

Guys,

Although it's probably not the answer most of you are looking for, I've come up with the following solution after thinking about this problem since this thread started. I've decided to leave our EM as a full street car and build a spec Miata to run at the track. This way I can really focus on my driving (and not worry about the ackward vehicle dynamics of a high HP/short WB car). After looking into it I think I can build a SM for about half the cost of a nice FFR Spec racer and maintenence should be minimal as well...

Mike

[Ant]

Single hoop:

Has someone in the US been killed with only a single hoop bar in a Cobra, or is it people making more rules up?

Single hoop roll bars have to made strong enough to withstand a lot, and located to a strong area of the car, I dont know about an original, but the Almac cars here would be stronger than an original car going by where the original bar is mounted - I would guess!
The height requirement is 2" above your helmet in NZ.

Two single hoop roll bars look pathetic and in a roll situation may not improve safety for the driver on the track, on the road with a passenger I am sure that would be a good idea and if something went wrong at least you have done something to prevent it!

Formula Fords, 5000 and other single seat cars have only a single hoop.
I have a friend with a Physics degree who builds aeroplanes cars etc and he questions the lawmakers for their reasoning behind implementing new rules.


Ant

[a427sc]

A properly mounted and braced single hoop is fine for the driver. It is not as safe as a full cage (FFR spec racer etc,) but for NON-COMPETITIVE open track, it will do the minimum. That doesn't mean it is safe, just the minimum required. This post was started because several groups are requiring equal safety equipment for the instructor/passenger, as for the driver. Often times, open track events will allow passengers, for at least one or more sessions. And every open track event requires instruction for inexperienced drivers, of which there are many. Most now will allow a lead/follow, but that is nowhere near as effective as a guy in the seat shouting in your ear.

Want to run a single hoop?... be experienced and ride alone.

McFEz

single hoop, brace, side bars and reinforced leg hoop.

[tommachine73]

Steve if your interested I made a double roll bar for my cobra.The unit is fully removeable.It works by bolting 4 plates to the floor and back bulkhead.When I go racing I simply take 16 bolts 4 for each plate and ratchet them in works great takes about 10 min.When I get home I simply remove the unit and go back to a street machine.The tubing is 2.00 o.d with a .125 wall it is plenty strong enough for a roll over,God forbid.Also it has been black powderd coated.Somebody make me a offer I cant refuse.I bought the Diasio racing car,and have no further use for the roll bar.
tommachine73

[M. Farcus]

I've been doing Track envents for about 15 years..both in a boat anchor FE (ala a427sc) and the much more nimble and quicker FIA...with ittsy bittsy 289....as the skill level and disire for "more" increased, the safety aspect was of consern...The cobra will be kept as a open track car only....I'm having a 66 Shelby built for Vintage racing ..with top...side bars...full chromoly cage....

Bottom line....open cars will never be a safe as something with a top and a cage....just my opinion..

Don's FE is very safe....to slow to be dangerous....unless he gets run over by a "little car"..... hey buddy...coming south this year?

Insurance cost is driving everything....even vintage racing. Much more time is being spent on safe cars and "legal" cars...most vintage cars are faster now than in the 60's due to "big" brakes...."big" motors...etc. If there are bad accidents....insurance cost will increase...more rules will be imposed...

Bottom line...."be safe"




M

[coyled]

Don, are you going to take that? Your fast going down hill at least, right? I was planning on drafting, someday. scott

[Mark IV]

I think Nikki Lauda will be VERY surprised to find out he is dead!

I don't know who you were referring to, but I am PDS it is not Nikki...


Rick

[a427sc]

Well, we all know how texans do run on. I'm surprised that this one likes to brag about his "ittsy bittsy" one, moder that is.

Have just come back from the fab shop with the new stage II ERA anti-pest system installed. Any you thought FE's just leaked oil, hehehe...

I don't think a trip south is in the cards for this year, but I'm workin' on the Boss about retiring down your way, maybe an investigative trip might be in the cards. "Yeah dear, well bring the trailer so we can pick up some neat souvineers and stuff..."

D

[FIA#9]

This issue is very problematic. Yesterday I went to an event at Watkins Glen (without my car) and came away bitten by the track bug worse than ever. AND, a 944 Turbo lost its brakes at the end of the front straight and flipped in the gravel, the only injury was pride. Can a single hoop roll bar run anywhere? One sensible solution is to buy and old Mazda RX7 cheap and make a dedicated track car, but explain that one to the wife, while a Cobra sits in the garage. I just remarked today that if someone came along with a half reasonable offer, I'd probably take it, because I want track time, but will be paying for college soon at God knows where. The hard part is that insurance companies don't offer a sliding scale for track entrants based upon risk. they just rely on the law of large numbers and lean on organizers to minimize risk. I wonder if we could approach an insurance company and negotiate a rate for Cobras only...

[DaveR]

My goal remains a daily driver that can also handle some track time. I accept the fact that wanting both means comprimising both. I saw a Cobra at the Knott's show that had a single hoop, but also had a removable 4 point roll bar inside the cockpit. It's a little bit of work to install every time the car is taken to the track but seems like a viable solution, and is safer than two hoops because of the forward struts that provide side impact protection.

[terry lee]

David R.,
I have the taller and larger single hoop track bar for the driver side only. It is a bit of a pain to install in that you must line up the holes from the existing rollbar to secure the new bar in place. I drilled my new holes (only two into the frame supports) a little larger and used a washers on both ends of the bolts. This allowed for some error.
I replaced the track bar with the original yesterday for street use, and it took me all of about 15 minutes to do the switch. Just three bolts(including the rear angled one)! Only problem I found was the rubber gromets at the holes in the body expanded because of the larger size of the new bar being in place for two weeks. Hopefully they will return to their original shape.
My guess is it should take me about 15 minutes the next time I need to do the switch back for the track bar.
I hope this helps those of you with this problem.
TL

[DaveR]

Terry Lee,
I thought about doing the same thing, chrome hoop for street and painted hoop with forward brace for track, but based on what is being said in this new thread I'll probably just go with 4 point full width roll bar with 2 forward braces. How do you like your 427, is it small or big block?