Liability at the track questions - Page 2

coyled · #21 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 10:29 AM

Kputz, Maybe you should have had your window net down ( so you could do a proper point by and lifted also. Unless I know for sure, which usually means a point by, I would not pass. As far as guys going off at open events, maybe they were pushing the limits at a track with no walls and lots of run off room. How do you get ability? does it appear without practice or just enter a race? I was really nervous 6 months ago when I was at willow springs on a friday. 2.4 miles, 9 turns, avg speed 90mph plus. Friday was race car only day. Stock cars, trucks, challenge ferraris and the cobra with a few others. Open track with like 40 cars all day, on and off as you please. I thought I would be over my head with all these guys that race. 60% of the cars were passing me and I was getting by the rest. I pointed every guy by me, nobody passed without the point by, they waited. The instant I was behind someone, they moved over and pointed me by. Every event I have been to, they discuss the point by. I do think that in the faster groups, guys are watching the mirrors and pay more attention. That same weekend, the races featured had like 10 guys go off each race. The open track groups had none that I remember. Scott

Kputz · #22 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 12:05 PM

Coy: As I said, the thread started with the liability issue, and I think I addressed that. As to the window net, it's there for a purpose, a purpose I think you might want to consider. It's there to keep your arms IN! Should I also have not buckled the 5 pt. entirely or just the lap belt?? Disabled the fire system?? I think you see my point here. As to the passing only on the left only, I think I made my point clear there also. That made no sense then and still doesn't, but if that's the way the locals want to run their event, so be it. My point was that often open events are run by rank amateurs, hence the liability (read safety) issue once again. As to the "no walls and lots of open run off" theme I have to rely on experience only. I've done club racing most of my life (I'm 58), from American Sedan to SSB to ITA to ITB to SM and I've actually witnessed roll overs on only a few occasions, but ALWAYS on open run off areas. That is precisely where you will roll over, when your car goes off and hooks a depression in the dirt. Read window net here.
So where does one get experience?? At a sanctioned and/or recognized driving school. Expensive?? You're damned right, and for good reason. You will be instructed by someone who knows what the hell he's talking about in a car that is as safe as it can be made. Liability? Not an issue.
Now, as to race experience, I'm afraid that comes from doing it, and the learning curve is steep, believe me.
As I said before, this was in answer to a question on liability, and where it might come from. I've made it no secret how I feel about open events and why, and the liability issue is at the top of the list, which is what the chap first inquired about. With probability comes risk, and the probability you'll be involved in something messy at an open event is quite high, much, much, much higher than a driver school, hence my participation in this thread.

coyled · #23 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 02:53 PM

If the rules are pass on the left and use a point by, whats so hard about that. Maybe you should use arm restraints instead of a window net. What are rank amateurs? Lynn Park runs coco at willow twice a year. I wouldn't call him anything but first class. How many open track events have you organized and supervised to judge open track operators in a blanket statement? Why would it matter to me as far as whom is running the event other than my own safety? What would that have to do with my liability? Your statement about liability is not an issue in a driving school. If you are driving in a driving school and you hurt somebody, you can still get sued for neglegence. Same with open track. Regardless of what is signed. That is not suppose to happen unless your in a race maybe, and then you would have a better arguement that everyone accepted the risk. You can get sued for anything, so there is risk, we can only try to mitigate it. Scott

TimG427 · #24 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 03:02 PM

You are correct, I learned how little I know about racing at two open track days at TWS. Fun, but boy was I green. And I was in a vintage race car that I was planning to race in the future.
I did have fun, though. Sold the car and now I miss the fast laps.

Kputz · #25 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 05:39 PM

Coy, you've evidently not attended a school, rather a real school. Cars are generally kept far apart, and oddly enough speed is rarely an issue, nor is it emphasized all that much. They actually make an attempt to teach you to drive and the number of offs at a professional school is remarkably small. They actually teach you that fast in road racing is corner fast, not horsepower fast, and it that takes more brains than motor to actually BE fast. I've been to my share of open events and the above description is hardly the norm.
About the arm restraint, it shows you're beginning to get it. Now then, if the open event REQUIRED either arm restraints OR window net, we'd be getting to some common ground here.
My point remains, the man asked about liability. He has a far greater exposer to liability risk at an open event than any other kind of event involving cars that I can think of. That he cared enough to ask is proof that he is a thinker, and deserved an answer. He got it.

Kputz · #26 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 06:01 PM

One other thing X. The crack about the "little spec. racers" tells me more than I wanted to know. I can do Gingerman, a 2.25 mile, 11 turn, 2 straight, course in 1:36 in a 450hp Cobra Mustang. I can do the same course in 1:38 in a Spec Miata with 120 hp. Two seconds/lap is a lifetime in a 30 minute event, but it does illustrate that, lap time alone, the "little spec cars" aren't necessarily the slouches you seem to think. That could well be the reason the class is overwhelmingly currently the most crowded class in SCCA, often involving 40 or more cars in a single event, and getting bigger every year. Think they're all newbies? Think again. Far and away most are guys that have driven the big iron, at great cost, who have come to the class because it is cheaper, and the cars are closer in performance, resulting in VERY close races. More about driver ability than who has the biggest pocket book. Then again, you sound like a horsepower kind of guy with real hair on your chest. The crack was uncalled for and indicates an unusual lack of knowledge on the subject. I've driven the big stuff and I've never had as much fun, as cheaply, as I've had with the SM group.

RACER X #99 · #27 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 08:10 PM

Kputz,
You give the impression that unless you have attended a REAL racing school you really have no idea what's goin on at the track.
Well lots of us have no desire to race in competition, we like to run our cars real hard on the track just like some guys like to run real hard on the street. As far as my comment about passing the spec racers. You know as well as anybody that Cobras are a tough car to drive on the track and beginner Cobra drivers are getting blown away by the low hp spec. racers. After some track experience these pesky little cars can be passed by Cobras. So what if it takes some HP to beat the better handling REAL racecars, wer'e out the're to have some fun. We ain't looking for trophys and we certainly ain't looking to become REAL racecar drivers.
If you don't like the way some groups run their Open track programs then stay away. The people running Open Track/ schools at the REAL racetracks in the East are doing a fine job. As a matter of fact the NASA club runs a combined REAL racing and driving school program at the same time and it works out real well. Not all Open track venues are run by amatures.

BTW one of our guys runs a spec Miata and a Cobra and the Cobra is a lot more thrilling.

Kputz · #28 (**permalink**) 10-22-2003, 11:37 PM

I run both too X, and one is for sale. Want to guess which one? Want to guess why? The guy wanted an opinion on liability, he got one that is a bit different. If he next wants an opinion on safety, especially driving a Cobra, he'll get that one too, and it's a doozy.

coyled · #29 (**permalink**) 10-23-2003, 09:28 AM

Kputz, I bet the one that is harder to drive is for sale. We all know that cobra's are not as safe as spec miatas. Scott

Excaliber · #30 (**permalink**) 10-23-2003, 10:04 AM

Hmmm,,,,I'm a little bit confused about the reference to Spec Miatas, I never made a comment on them. But I will now!

We don't have any "spec" Miatas running in Hawaii, but we do have a lot of Miatas in general run. Modified properly, (most of them are totally stock) they sure turn in some impressive times.

I could see doing one for the track. But I strongly prefer a V-8, been there done that with the "tiny blocks".

Ernie

Kputz · #31 (**permalink**) 10-25-2003, 10:41 AM

It's all about what floats your boat, how deep your desire and pockets Ernie. Everybody would love to run GT, if for no other reason than the noise. But condsider this. American Sedan is a class that is restricted to Camaros, Mustangs, Firebirds and Cougars. It will cost you upwards of $30k to build one, more if you want to run up front. You can buy an old one and have fun for $12-$20k and run mid to back pack. You can build a Spec Miata for about $10k or buy one fully sorted for a few thou more.
The class is new, about 4 years old, but the concept is ancient, ie keep racing competitive, fun and cheap(er). It's been tried before, but rules creep seems to always happen, the jury is out on how long this will last.

To run with the big dogs in AS you will need a $5-7K motor, hardened tranny and rear end and all should be blueprinted. Suspension, custom exhaust, wheels, and the latest go-fast carbuerator or whatever will mean you will be wrenching constantly, and expensively. And tires, you'll need tires, and they'll be Hoosiers, good for about 6 heat cycles at $225+ a pop. You'll need stickers and rains and spares for both and wheels for all. You'll need spare trannies ($2500) and rear ends ($1500) and clutch ($1500), all hardened, and the talent to swap each in under 3 hours, on your back, in the sun.

With the SM you get a car that will need a spare motor (from Mazda at $1400), tranny ($600), clutch ($600) and rear end ($400). You'll rarely have to fix anything on the car aside from break pads and rotors, the things are bulletproof. Everything is "Spec'd" to a degree, so everybody's running the same thing. Tires? The class mandates Toyo RA1's in most Regions, a tire that can be had for under $150 already shaved and will last the entire season. They actually get a bit faster as the cord begins to show.

You still wont be able to run with the guys that are willing to buy 10 motors, a dozen clutches, trannies, exhaust systems, AFB's, injectors by the box, and spend all winter on the dyno with every possible combination to find the one that works best. They'll find another 10-15 HP though, which will compute to 10%+ better than you, and most own speed shops where they can parcel off the parts that aren't able to be matched. Always in racing, it's the pocket book that is the big factor.

Still, you'll be able to run at the front of the pack, depending on talent, in some of the closest racing available, and do it without sacrificing your 401k plan. It's why its big and getting bigger, and until the cheating starts and is allowed to continue, it will be the most popular class in SCCA.

So, you pays your dough and you takes your chances, but dollar for dollar it's about the most sensible way to go racing. Forget about the grumble at idle and the roar down the straight, it's simply the sound of your pocket book groaning. A lot of fast guys in fast classes are comming to SM, (further decreasing my chances at podiums), and to a man agree that there is no better venue to get your required dose of G's.

RACER X #99 · #32 (**permalink**) 10-25-2003, 02:12 PM

Ernie,
Kputz is correct about the low cost REAL racing with the Miata. Also low thrill ride.
Lets face facts Open track and racing is just like car shows, guys do it to stroke their own egos. None of the guys we Open track with are serious racers except for one but we all appreciate it when a stranger comes up to us in the pit and asks what the hell do you have for power in that thing."you blew past me like I had stopped and you almost blew my eardrums out. That freeking thing is LOUD". We have Open tracked at the same event with NASA and they were running the spec series Miatas and I can guarantee nobody ever accused a Miata driver of blowing by.
All Kputz has to do is run that Cobra of his unmuffled and he will get his ego stroked faster than you can say Miata.

LOUDER IS BETTER

PatBuckley · #33 (**permalink**) 10-25-2003, 04:39 PM

Cranky-

There you go again, opening your mouth when you have absolutely NO clue as to what the hell you're talking about.

If you have EVER taken a green flag in a race you would know that actually RACING in the slowest class provides way more thrills than the loudest (or fastest) car in an open track event.

Whatever made you think you have all the answers?

Pat Buckley

RACER X #99 · #34 (**permalink**) 10-26-2003, 06:03 AM

You know Buckley if you weren't such a little feller you would not have to display your machismo by doing those juvinile burnouts in front of the folks at the SF. Did they wave a green flag for you to do the burnout?
You know it really amazes me the excuses guys will use for not wanting to run their Cobras on the track.
I know they are tough to handle for us full size people but I can only imagine how difficult it must be for those guys not so fully grown.
Perhaps you could consider having power steering and brakes added along with the peddle blocks.

I would be happy to discuss this further over at Cobranet. Maybe you can tell us all about your triumphs in the SCCA.

MYOFB

PatBuckley · #35 (**permalink**) 10-26-2003, 08:28 AM

First of all, I visited that cesspool you call a home and can't say there is much there for me. All you guys seem to be good at is cussing. I am more intelligent that that - I can actually express myself with out using expletives - (expletives means cussing by the way).

The other thing you seem pretty good at is criticizing Club Cobra and all the "f'ing waxers" here - so why are you back? Oh wait, I think I know - there was no one to play with at "Club Cranky" - the times I checked, ALL the posts were about 3 days old and they were all about how bad Club Cobra is and about trying to get guys to join your "Club"....LOL!

People I have talked to about your personality seem to agree that you are one of those guys who is real mild in person but a real tiger behind the keyboard....I actually could care but it was interesting to hear that.

I wouldn't waste my breath trying to tell you about any racing I have done because you wouldn't understand - you think that driving a car around a race track at an open track is cool. It is a waste of good race gas - what is the point? Oh, I'm sorry - to impress those who have never been on a race track at all! Big man on campus - junior high.

I did some open track when it first started - it was meant to be a test and tune for guys who actually raced and then the "wannabes" like you came along and before you knew it, it was a real poplular deal - so you should listen to Kputz when he tells you how it is - he knows, you haven't a clue.

By the way - do you guys actually drink the night before you go out on the track? You think that is OK? I guess it is if you are real slow....but make sure you don't do that if you want to go fast, OK?

Well, Mr. Phony Racer, I hope you have a great Sunday!

Pat

computerworks · #36 (**permalink**) 10-26-2003, 08:36 AM

This thread now fails the "litmus test" of what is acceptable dialog on ClubCobra.

You may continue your discusssion elsewhere.

Ron
ClubCobra Moderator