Road America video - Page 4

GeorgiaSnake · #61 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 07:01 PM

Morris

Ahhhhhh the dip ! I've tried to explain it to some of the new guys but words don't do it justice. Loved the turn in at the top - Cogbill told me the fast line was to try and hit the bridge abbutment on the right. I also remember PLN damn near stopping under the bridge when his car screwed up - what a mess - parts everywhere.

How about a trip back to the south as many of us could use your knowledge making these beast handle.

Randy

Morris · #62 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 07:42 PM

Randy

Your right .... it's hard to explain to folks if they never saw it....

It was also a great place to pass..... so was the Dip its self......

I remember passing Jim Fitzgerald in the dip and out brakeing him coming up to the bridge...... then he raced me side by side down the hill and all the way to turn one...... WOW.... I think 4 of us were within .8 of a Second of each other and we ran probably 12 laps that way before we started speading out .... about 1 car length.....

I'd love to come back down there..... some day when we get a car built so I can start understanding some of the things these Cobra's do at speed....

On second thought maybe we'll just drive this one on the street and help and advise others.... I like to give back knowledge to others...... so they can enjoy what they have.....

Had some great times at Road Atlanta and will sure try to assist anybody that needs it.

BTW.... Elkhart Lake is only a couple hours away from where I live now.... so is IRP.... Mid Ohio.... St Louis.... Kansas City.... Brainerd....and Blackhawk.....CenDiv always had all of the good tracks... com'on up and we can do it here...

Jim "Fitzy"Fitzgerald always told me ..... Stiffen and slide..... he didn't realize I was going to slide right on by..... we really had some fun racing and would recommend it to anyone....

Richard Hudgins · #63 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 07:48 PM

Morris,

You are certainly correct about about Road Atlanta. They have cut the soul right out of the track with the new configuration.

The dip (or Bottom as it was called then) was was an expensive place for us however.

We had one Lola T210 and one brand new T212 that we were testing prior to the 1972 CA race. (These were 2 liter CanAm cars running BMW F2 engines.)

We lost four engines in two days right at the bottom of the hill. What a mess. Took out everything, bellhousing, gearbox, etc. Each time.

The cranks and main bolts broke in each motor. We did not have a clue what was going on.

After a couple of not too happy calls to Schnitzer (The engine builders) they sent over a engineer to look at the bits.

It seems that the G loading at the bottom of the hill was enough to pull the main studs out of the blocks. (As we were turning these devils 12.5k, they were on the limit in the best of conditions.)

The cure was to limit the revs in this section to 11k. We just changed 5th gear to limit revs and we did not break any more engines.

But, This change cost 1.5 seconds a lap.

Boy, there are a million stories of Old Road Atlanta. Too bad they are not all written down for everyone to share.

You would would of loved the early IMSA shows there. It really was run what you brung days.

By the way, I was just told that Mid-America Raceway is gone. Bummer. I really liked that track.

Well things change, don't they?

Morris · #64 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 08:11 PM

Richard

MAR.... or Mid America Raceway.... was one of the best tracks you could ever drive.... as you know it had many elevation changes.... and it was a Drivers track even though it had that long straight away....

Infact .... Mack Yates in a Original Cobra gave me my first lesson on how to drive over the apex and flip up the rocks and destroy my windshield..... Dam that made me mad..... but I learned I had to sneak up on him and pass him in the down hill section going to turn 3.....

If we knew we had a great lap going for us .... we would keep our foot in it and drive past Timing and Scoring to get a good time , then blow off the next lap and do it again.... Turn one..... was a great spectator place to watch us bang into each other.... accidently ..... of course.....

I saw some of the farm boys from the Mid west come out there with there Camero's and Mustangs and really go at it.....

You are right MAR was a great race track.....

I think it's a sub-division now..... Kind a like Riverside..... and Turn 9.....

ToyCollector · #65 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 08:23 PM

Geez, as if Turn 12 isn't scary enough already at Road Atlanta [it's actually not a bad turn in a 150 HP car

]. You old timers now introduce the "dip"

which is a legend. I HAVE A TON of respect for what you all have done. I actually gather more respect every day I learn this sport. Morris, glad to have your contributions to the Cobra site.

Morris · #66 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 08:45 PM

Toy

Just hope we can bring something to the table and help folks when they need it.....

I'm sure I'll be needing some help with the Kirkham we have coming....and there's allot of knowledge and experience on this site....

Rebel1 · #67 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 09:39 PM

WOW ...what a great thread.....excellent video from scott and first rate follow on posts by all you ex racers.

I have just learned so much by your responses.

Morris ... I'll make a bet that cobra of yours is gonna be one mean SOB when you get it finished.

a427sc · #68 (**permalink**) 12-15-2003, 09:45 PM

Not to break up the "remember when session"

, but Scott, I have an idea for you to mull around. Since you don't want to stiffen the rear and lose off corner traction and loosen the car , why don't you consider reducing the camber some and increasing the caster. This way, under braking, you will have a flatter, larger tire contact (especially as you get camber gain when the front end dives) but the wheel will "lay over" as you turn. Might help with better braking grip and be more neutral in the turn. Of course, you might have to work out to get the arms up to speed too.

Don

coyled · #69 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 07:53 AM

Don, at shorter tracks, the cobra is a ton of work. Trying to muscle it around. I am running 4.5 degrees of castor as it sets. Pro shocks did take a bit of compression out of the fronts but added a ton of rebound on all 4 corners which really helped corner exits. Maybe less compresion in front is adding to the wiggle. I have thought about a bit less camber in front. What I really need is a good driver to drive it and tell me what changes to make. If I can get rid of that wiggle and get it to stop better, I would be pretty happy with it. Scott

BT SNAKE · #70 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 08:59 AM

Great Thead Scotty!!

Hey Morris, if you don't mind me asking, what years were you
SCCA National Champion ? Great stories by the way..

Hersh

Morris · #71 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 12:59 PM

Hersh

We were National Champion

1984 - GT-2 - Datsun 280Z
1987 - GT-2 - Nissan 280ZX
1989 - GT-1 - Corvette ( The engine block was a part of the chassis.... like a indy car turned around.... )

Everybody thought we were going to break the motor in half in the Dip..... luckly we just went faster.....

Just like a John Deere......

Richard Hudgins · #72 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 07:43 PM

Morris C.

MAR was my favorite track in the Midwest from a driving standpoint. Good and technical.

The crew liked it best because the women were the prettiest. (Or at least they got the luckiest there)

We had a customer CP Elan in the shop that I used to take out once in a while to MAR to embarrass the Vettes. You will understand what I mean. The only track where 6 lbs per hp would beat 4 lbs per hp every time.

Yeah, "Fitzy" liked em' stiff. (He grew up with whippy chassis's) He always told me that he liked to drive "ON TOP".

He took over VIR School of Motor Racing from me in the early 70's and I guess ran it until the track finally closed for good. E. Paul Rembold was the track owner and a real PITA to deal with for the sanctioning bodies and I guess that is what finally killed the track. (He was great to me.)

By the way, Cendiv is a great region, but the chief stewards were pussies. I got called for aggressive driving at every centdiv track I went to. (I guess they were not used to European driving tactics)

Scott,

First thing. You need to get rid of any toe steer in the rear. The car will never be stable under braking if you do not fix this.

Now, I have looked at your video a number of times. (And I paid attention!)

Please notice that when your car is on "Center" that you have a fairly unstable Yaw motion.

1. This indicates a damper problem. (I know, you don't want hear this, you have done a bunch of work in this area.)

I do not know what sort of dampers that you are running, but my guess would be that you are getting fluid cavitations at short high speed shaft motion. (Very normal in non gas dampers.)

You will notice that this gets worse on the second lap. Once again a indication of cavitations.

I would send this video to your damper guys. If they know their stuff, they will understand the problem and be able to recommend a solution.

OR.

2. It is Chassis flex. (This is the area where it shows itself.)

For this one, you just start running the wheel and damper rates up. You are already pretty high. But maybe you need to go farther. Think like the go kart folks. Or like the LOLA runners. Eric B. was the master of making a flexible chassis go really fast.

Morris · #73 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 10:27 PM

Richard

MAR was my home track and I know just what you mean.... and will tell you that Sam Posey did the same thing with one of Bob Sharps old Datsun 280Z when I first started..... wow .... I just never could understand how I would ever go that fast.....

And you know it always amazed me about breaking Track records... because I never thought we could go any faster .... but we did and each year they would restrict our Carbs from 44's down to 36mm's and we still went faster and broke our own records....

What a Great time to be involved in racing and learning what the "Unfair Advantage" is.....

Scott

Richard is right about the wheel rates and dampners....

Take all of the springs up 50-100# and increase the dampening and increase the rear Rebound to get it to turn in better.....doesn't transfer as much weight as fast.......notice the difference..... some of the flexibility in the chassis is not controlable but the Wheel rates are and you will be surprised how is works....

And pay attention to the Tire temps and make changes..... if you don't change you'll never go faster but make sure the change is repeatable.... and you know it did work.... ever time I went on the race track we did one or two thing to the car to figure it and the track out.... cars are very forgiveable.... and you'll be amazed how fast you notice the difference....

BT SNAKE · #74 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 10:28 AM

Thanks Morris,
Three championships is pretty damn good!
Boy, I can't wait to put a camera on my car and stick the video in here. To get this kind of setup advise is priceless.

Hersh