Continuing saga for Roush 511

csx4910 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 08:36 AM

I am beginning to think my car is cursed. After 4 months at Roush, the motor passed dyno with flying colors and gets shipped back to Arizona. Charlie at Hot Rods by Dean got the mottor in and the starter failed. Gets the starter working but now the enging is running like crap. Idling high, hesitation between 2nd and 3rd gear and throttle bodies don't seem to be in sync. If anyone can get it fixed I know Charlie can. The only difference is that the computer that controls everyone stayed with the car when the engine went back to Roush. I wouldnt think anything during shipping should change the motor, but any ideas why when hooking it back to the computer, why the change in how it runs? As much as I love this engine when it is running right, I wish I would of waited until they got the problems sorted out with this motor before I bought it.
Ron

Mulv · #2 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csx4910

I am beginning to think my car is cursed.

Cars do not get curses , the problem is complex but fixable. What I would do is talk to the people at Roush and exchange your computer for theirs . I have experience (way in the past) with Electromotive systems and I can tell you that when they got out of whack you needed to return to a baseline setting to get started and make your mods from there and it took many hours to get results. Unless your guys are totally familiar with the systems and the engine you will be forever doomed. Get Roush to help you, it behooves them to do so. Even if they have to come here to do it.

There is a different elevation, air density and humidity here than there is in the Detroit area, I know it is only a delta of about 600 feet , but who knows? I would change every sensor that did not travel with the engine as another suggestion. Airflow and oxygen sensors can make the bugs that you are seeing.

I can tell you right now that after this frickin' Novella that you are living, there is no chance at all that Mulv is going to buy a Roush engine , Mustang or anything else. When you sell the most expensive engines of the type, it is wise to ensure that your customer sat is as close to 100% as possible. I am not seeing that here...

RodKnock · #3 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 10:07 AM

I know you'll hate me for saying this, but at some point, and I'm not sure you're there yet (though I might be), I would either ditch the EFI or just buy another new engine. Tell Roush they can have it back and you would like a refund, or have them send a new carbed engine or worst case scenario, if Roush doesn't do the right thing, put it up for sale on the FE Forum and here.

This is WAY too much for me. It really shouldn't be that complicated.

Got the Bug · #4 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 10:43 AM

Ron,

Whew! Sorry to hear that the saga continues. A couple of ideas.

Who did you buy your CSX chassis from? If it was someone like Hillbank, maybe Lance could put some pressure on Roush to come up with a solution. I know that in a couple of instances, Roush has put someone on a plane to go on site to fix a problem that can't be resolved.

I'm not doubting Charlie's skills, but is fuel injection tuning his expertise? Does he have the equipment to calibrate the system and diagnose problems? If you/Charlie submit a warranty request form to Roush explaining the problem, they'll cover of the costs of taking the car to fuel injection specialist.

Blittleton · #5 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csx4910

I am beginning to think my car is cursed. After 4 months at Roush, the motor passed dyno with flying colors and gets shipped back to Arizona. Charlie at Hot Rods by Dean got the mottor in and the starter failed. Gets the starter working but now the enging is running like crap. Idling high, hesitation between 2nd and 3rd gear and throttle bodies don't seem to be in sync. If anyone can get it fixed I know Charlie can. The only difference is that the computer that controls everyone stayed with the car when the engine went back to Roush. I wouldnt think anything during shipping should change the motor, but any ideas why when hooking it back to the computer, why the change in how it runs? As much as I love this engine when it is running right, I wish I would of waited until they got the problems sorted out with this motor before I bought it.
Ron

I would think that you should have sent the computer back with the engine. This is what controls the motor. If your computer was at fault before you sent he engine back, why would it not be the problem now? They should be able to send you the program thru an email to your engine guy to reprogram the computer or at least send the computer back to Roush and have them redo the program. Resync the throttle bodies isn't too difficult. Whom are you working with now at Roush? Since Todd has left.

Bill

SandyC · #6 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 12:18 PM

Oh man, that so sucks. I'm pretty sure the answer has to be with Roush. My experience is that there is no one locally here in Arizona who has the experience to work on it without Roush's input. The EMC programming is proprietary and is password protected as long as the engine is under warranty. The Roush EFI techs are the guys qualified to work on it and I am certain that once one of their techs gets the go-ahead and "locks in" on it, it will be dialed in and run perfectly. I know they can datalink info back and forth to/from Livonia but I don't know the extent of the data that's transmittable. Charlie can then tweak the curves and any other inputs based on their directives. It would be nice if Roush could just remotely take over the EMC by internet but again I don't know if that is possible. In my opinion Charlie is the best man to be handling this problem right now because he has experience with and understands the Roush corporate culture and can make things happen. Close, so close...

csx4910 · #7 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 12:34 PM

The company I got the roller from is no longer in business. The hot rod shop has been in contact with Roush to try to get it sorted oiut. Roush did not want the computer sent back with the motor, the only wanted the motor.

addendum - I just spoke to Charlie at 130 and it is now running great but they starter has failed completely. Roush is sending out a new starter but at least the engine is running good now. As soon as the starter gets here she should be good to go.

tin-man · #8 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csx4910

The company I got the roller from is no longer in business. The hot rod shop has been in contact with Roush to try to get it sorted oiut. Roush did not want the computer sent back with the motor, the only wanted the motor.

addendum - I just spoke to Charlie at 130 and it is now running great but they starter has failed completely. Roush is sending out a new starter but at least the engine is running good now. As soon as the starter gets here she should be good to go.

This has got to be one of the saddest stories I have read regarding corporate inattention to detail and accepting responsibility for resolving customer complaints for a product that certainly is suspect. I can feel your pain and I sure as hell hope the 511 IR FE 8 stack I have on order from Roush has better luck, I am sorry to say that, but when a person drops 40 large, the current going rate for the engine, their expectations are they should get value for their money. That said, if the engine is anything like yours, Roush will face a s*** storm of biblical proportions, not a threat, just fact. tin-man

twobjshelbys · #9 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 10:08 PM

Mine is still OTL. I saw Todd at Barrett Jackson and he said I should ship my whole car back to them, but so far emails have not been answered...

slider701 · #10 (**permalink**) 02-05-2010, 10:17 PM

You might want to contact Roush and see if they have any of their engineers that are working on Ford production calibration development at Ford’s Arizona proving grounds in Wittmann, AZ for the winter. Roush does a ton of production calibration work for Ford and more specifically for Ford’s SVT group. These are the same powertrain engineers that work alongside the engine guys who develop the FI for the crate motors. I have witnessed this first hand when I worked for Ford’s SVT group and they were working in our building (owned by Roush) on the 402/427 FI engines. I can PM you the e-mail addresses of some of the folks I use to work with at Roush, they may or may not be able to help you out.

They may be able to help you out in conjunction with their counterparts back in Detroit on a weekend along with your tuner to help get it sorted out. A bad calibration or base wiring issue controlling the FI could have been what damaged the engine in the first place (like washing down the cylinders or running too lean and burning a piston/valve). If you don’t get the calibration ironed out you will only continue to damage the new engine.

Worst case see if you can ship the car to them in Detroit (use Reliable or another carrier Roush recommends) and let them iron it out in their shops.

vector1 · #11 (**permalink**) 02-06-2010, 05:14 AM

sounds like electrical or ecu problems, maybe not a good ground, or during hookup any stray voltage go through the ecu? check all the wiring, you have to believe that roush had it running in good form or they would not send it out. if everything checks out on your end i would attempt to try their ecu, but you don't want something to happen to it. good luck, i chased efi stuff for quite a while before i gave up and went back to carb.

Rwillia4 · #12 (**permalink**) 02-06-2010, 09:53 AM

Glad to hear the engine is running. When I installed my motor I had the same problems. I think this was do to the engine builder tuning to his test facility for the highest HP and not to items that are car dependent such as, headers and exhaust. I agree that your ECU should have been sent with the motor.
The effect on my motor was very rich conditions, to the point that it would spit flames out of the exhaust when backing off the gas. It ended up blowing a head gasket (coughed the gasket out between two cylinders). After getting that fixed, I did an in-car ECU fuel adjustment. This was crucial to making it work! I now enjoy a very response engine that gets good MPG. I also had a flat spot in power (more like a trench) in power when I would ease into the power when staying with traffic speed, that is gone. I’m not sure what ECU you are running but if you really what to get it tweaked properly you need to do an in-car on the road test to get it dialed in.
Another simple thing that can cause havoc on how your system is running is the MAP sensor, have a spare and swap it out.

SandyC · #13 (**permalink**) 02-06-2010, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tin-man

...I sure as hell hope the 511 IR FE 8 stack I have on order from Roush has better luck...

Just to give a little encouragement, I have about 7000 miles on my 511iR (SN 014) now and other than having to have the EFI dialed in a bit with 100 miles on the engine it has performed flawlessly. I have been more than happy with it. It's just such a shame Ron has had to deal with all this, but once it's dialed in -- and it will be shortly -- OH YEAH!

BTW, give it a good patient break-in Ron and Tin Man, I don't care what they say. Most people say 500 miles will do it. I gave mine 1500 miles before I pushed it with abandon. Also my Tremec TKO600 owners manual recommended keeping it under 4000 RPM for the first 500 miles.

DWRAT · #14 (**permalink**) 02-06-2010, 10:34 AM

SandyC
Don't you have a big time oil usage problem or did you have a oil usage problem?
I remember you talking about it but I could be missing part of the story.

SandyC · #15 (**permalink**) 02-06-2010, 03:41 PM

No, that was a one-time deal where I didn't have the breather cap on right -- my fault.

Fitz · #16 (**permalink**) 02-06-2010, 04:50 PM

Glad I stayed local getting a motor - 408 stoker sure sounds and feels great - feel sorry for you guys with motor issues. HP gain usually causes stress! But then when you are driving it just feels

Sometimes it is better to be small