Butler Registry...It's time!

[750hp]

Welcome to ClubCobra, Steve. There wouldn't be many others on this site who have owned their Cobra since 1985!

[lal Naja]

I've owned my Butler since 1987.

Your picture of the left front frame is where the stamped number should be.

If not numbered, it may have been one of the frames that Butler made for Arntz. I'm not sure anyone really knows the Arntz numbering system.

The body in the left wheel arch also looks a little different to my Butler with the horizontal cut out section. The indent behind the MGB lever Shock is much smaller than mine and the shock tower for tubular shock is also missing.

The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.

Arthur

[VC455]

Originally Posted by lal Naja

I've owned my Butler since 1987.

Your picture of the left front frame is where the stamped number should be.

If not numbered, it may have been one of the frames that Butler made for Arntz. I'm not sure anyone really knows the Arntz numbering system.

The body in the left wheel arch also looks a little different to my Butler with the horizontal cut out section. The indent behind the MGB lever Shock is much smaller than mine and the shock tower for tubular shock is also missing.

The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.

Arthur

lal Naja
Thanks for all the observations.
I'd like to find out where my car slots into the Arntz/Butler family tree.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where else to look for frame ID info??
I'd love to hear from anyone about any of my miscellaneous ramblings below ...

I've been driving the wheels off this car since 1985 and never really got around to the history. I stumbled on this site, and am fascinated by the group knowledge base.
Yeah, I have a ton of questions and can certainly take more pictures.

a) your comment about: The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.
What about those 2 holes, WHY??

b) what is the accepted practice for controlling the Jag hubs, forward and backward? My car HAD nothing, I made up a double spherical-joint 'trailing link' that picks up the bottom the Jag hub and goes forward @ ~45% to forward lateral frame rail...
Comments? I'll take photos.

c) yeah, you mentioned my lever action shocks in the front end, seems I also have a Dick Goldstrand A arm kit, ??

d) has Eplison F & R modular wheels.



BTW I have
1) a copy of the Butler 2 page wiring handout dated 5/82

AND an Original (not copy) of
2) COBRA ROADSTER PARTS CATALOG
1963 thru 1967
Models
dated NOVEMBER 1968 and stamped $5.00

3) While I was in CA, Mike McClusky of Torrance Ca did some work on my car.


Interesting memorabilia.

[750hp]

Arthur - 1987's very impressive as well!

Steve your left front suspension shot is interesting. As a point of comparison, look at how much higher the suspension is mounted in Dad's Arntz;



compared to yours;

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Arthur - 1987's very impressive as well!

I too will be impressed when I finish building it!!!

Steve your left front suspension shot is interesting. As a point of comparison, look at how much higher the suspension is mounted in Dad's Arntz;

I believe that this is just the perspective angle of the camera.

BTW...Is the Fastcars IFS fitted to your Dad's car yet?



compared to yours;

The Body of the Arntz is different too in the front wheel arch.

Arthur

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by VC455

lal Naja
Thanks for all the observations.
I'd like to find out where my car slots into the Arntz/Butler family tree.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where else to look for frame ID info??
I'd love to hear from anyone about any of my miscellaneous ramblings below ...

I've been driving the wheels off this car since 1985 and never really got around to the history. I stumbled on this site, and am fascinated by the group knowledge base.
Yeah, I have a ton of questions and can certainly take more pictures.

a) your comment about: The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.
What about those 2 holes, WHY??

b) what is the accepted practice for controlling the Jag hubs, forward and backward? My car HAD nothing, I made up a double spherical-joint 'trailing link' that picks up the bottom the Jag hub and goes forward @ ~45% to forward lateral frame rail...
Comments? I'll take photos.

c) yeah, you mentioned my lever action shocks in the front end, seems I also have a Dick Goldstrand A arm kit, ??

d) has Eplison F & R modular wheels.



BTW I have
1) a copy of the Butler 2 page wiring handout dated 5/82

AND an Original (not copy) of
2) COBRA ROADSTER PARTS CATALOG
1963 thru 1967
Models
dated NOVEMBER 1968 and stamped $5.00

3) While I was in CA, Mike McClusky of Torrance Ca did some work on my car.


Interesting memorabilia.

a) The holes would be for access to the front nuts on the inner pivot shaft of the Control Arm. Or, if a long bolt was used as the pivot shaft, then the hole would be for the removal of the bolt.

b) Acceptable. Anything well engineered with CORRECT geometry. This means that the trailing links need to align with the inner pivot shaft mentioned in (a) above. this prevents any binding as the suspension travels through its full range of motion.

Original Jag design was not a perfect solution and that is why the pivot points had large rubber bushings. Having the Trailing Links going forward of the IRS on our cars poses a whole bunch of problems. And is not the direction I would go. There is plenty of room to have correct geometry Trailing arms going backward from the IRS.

In addition to trailing arms; a Watts Linkage would make a perfect setup. Fitting Watts should be no problem. Mick Mate on this Forum makes a great Watts unit, but you will have to adapt it a little to your frame. And don't forget an Anti-Sway-Bar.

Arthur

[mickmate]

I'm going to get together with Steve pretty soon hopefully and check out his chassis. Do yours look anything like Anthony's?
MOV04917.mp4 video by acmjg - Photobucket
That's one of my watts linkages.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by mickmate

I'm going to get together with Steve pretty soon hopefully and check out his chassis. Do yours look anything like Anthony's?
MOV04917.mp4 video by acmjg - Photobucket
That's one of my watts linkages.

Mickmate, Is your question to me? If so, I do not know for sure how close the Arntz frame is to mine, a Butler. I can only assume that it would be close.

Arthur

[mickmate]

Hi Arthur I'm just trying to find a good pic of the rear frame to compare it to. It looks like the rear end bolts on the back of the Butler frame? This red one you pictured is very similar to the one I linked to from the look of it.
Jaguar IRS Linkage mods - Club Cobra Photo Gallery

[joyridin']

That is exactly what my set-up uses on my Arntz. Looks to be the same rods, connectors, center support mount, even mounting under the pumpkin.

I can grab some pics if you need.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by mickmate

Hi Arthur I'm just trying to find a good pic of the rear frame to compare it to. It looks like the rear end bolts on the back of the Butler frame? This red one you pictured is very similar to the one I linked to from the look of it.
Jaguar IRS Linkage mods - Club Cobra Photo Gallery

Nick, the red frame is exactly like mine.

I still have to install a anti-sway bar on mine, then find room for the Watts linkage to fit.

You can see some photos of my frame in my albums here in my profile. I can also shoot you a couple more and send via my iphone if you PM me an email address.

Arthur

[mickmate]

That is a good underneath shot of the rear end you have in there. We'll talk about the watts but it looks very do-able. How many Butlers have you tracked down at this point?

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by mickmate

That is a good underneath shot of the rear end you have in there. We'll talk about the watts but it looks very do-able. How many Butlers have you tracked down at this point?

Nick, Russ AKA -- SoTexButler -- on this forum is the man building the Butler Registry. And sorry Russ, your Registration Thread is getting hi-jacked.

Somewhare on this Registration thread I believe that there are 100 + Butler Cobra's. Ron Butler also made a bunch of frames for Arntz and who knows how many Arntz units were made? Eventually Russ will be able to enlighten us all.

I'm starting a now post for Arntz Butler Watts Linkage...What say you all? This way we can have a following and Nick can determine if it's worth the R&D to pursue this.. Then we can all be winners.

Arthur

[VC455]

Back to the Butler Registry:
My car was built in Santa Monica CA about 1979-1980.
I can't tell if Arntz or Butler, I believe Butler. In the interest of Registry,
is there some pictures I can take and post that will help identify?
Specific places I can look,
telltales/
build details?
I've looked on the LF frame rail just behind front bumper, posted photo, difficult to see because of body.
I'd like to help get the Registry accounting accurate.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by VC455

Back to the Butler Registry:
My car was built in Santa Monica CA about 1979-1980.
I can't tell if Arntz or Butler, I believe Butler. In the interest of Registry,
is there some pictures I can take and post that will help identify?
Specific places I can look,
telltales/
build details?
I've looked on the LF frame rail just behind front bumper, posted photo, difficult to see because of body.
I'd like to help get the Registry accounting accurate.

Take a look at my photo album in my profile here on the Forum. You will see a few photos that may help with your identification.

The stamped number should be on the very front of the frame in the left wheel arch. It is just to the right (or rear) by 1" or so, of the oval body vent and where the vertical 2" tab 3" tab bolts the frame to the body. This is also where the bumper slides through the body and attaches to the frame.

As for photos: Take engine bay by radiator and IFS shroud. Steering column over the footwell and how it connects to the rack and pinion. Underside of the hood. Underside of the frame showing X member, IRS. And inside and of the trunk & underside of the lid.

[n6opv]

VC455,

If your car actually was built in 79-80, it's an Arntz. Butler may have supplied some parts or done some labor but it won't be a Butler and won't have the BRI number stamped on the frame behind the left front bumper bracket. Butler didn't build his frame jig until 82. Pictures from underneath are the most helpful in determining what you have, especially of the pedal box area, crossmember and differential mounting area. Door hinge and engine compartment construction will help as well.

Jason

[VC455]

Originally Posted by n6opv

VC455,

If your car actually was built in 79-80, it's an Arntz. Butler may have supplied some parts or done some labor but it won't be a Butler and won't have the BRI number stamped on the frame behind the left front bumper bracket. Butler didn't build his frame jig until 82. Pictures from underneath are the most helpful in determining what you have, especially of the pedal box area, crossmember and differential mounting area. Door hinge and engine compartment construction will help as well.

Jason

Thanks Jason, and others,
I'll collect all the photos and submit for opinions/eval ASAP.
Might be a little delay due to T-Day and in-laws, etc...
Remember, the best four Fs are upon us, here are three of them:
Family, Food, Football and ... well...

[Kim Bager]

Hi Rob
I have bought the Arntz "GR 172" car from Jerry, and the car is now in Denmark. I am going to register the car, but the danish motor vehicle office ask for further documentation regarding the frame no. and origin.

I have found out that your car has a similar frame no., and would be very interested to hear if you have found further documentation for the car?

I hope you can help

Regards Kim