Fast Cars IFS

[Donunder]

We're nearly there!
You were right Arthur-- the steering is proving more problematic than we thought, but Peter's on top of it and Arnie should be back on the road, with two new rear tyres , within a few days. It'll be a pleasure to drive without having to cope with a jiggling steering wheel.
Ted's IFS looks sensational in there- just a small alteration required to sit it in place.
Report with pics shortly.

[Donunder]

REALLY quick update.

The installation is pretty much done. The difference to the handling is what we expected--amazing. There are two niggling problems 1) the steering is binding slightly, it has too much freeplay at dead-ahead, and it's not self-centering, and 2) the brakes need work.

The steering is not down to the geometry or Ted's IFS or the universals. It's either the rack itself (unlikely) or the column internals where they go through the dash.

The brakes. Peter is going to rethink the whole master cylinder set up and also rework the balance bar because there appears there may be too much rear brakes bias at present.

But man, even with the big ole 255 BFGs on the front, the steering (once you get past the initial stickiness) is nicely weighted, and the car just tracks beautifully through corners. Once we get it to behave in a straight line and the brakes start doing their thing, it should be really fun to drive.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by Donunder

REALLY quick update.

The installation is pretty much done. The difference to the handling is what we expected--amazing. There are two niggling problems 1) the steering is binding slightly, it has too much freeplay at dead-ahead, and it's not self-centering, and 2) the brakes need work.

Where could the binding be taking place? If you have the MBG steering it a simple setup, although primitive, the bushings are normally sloppy and dont have a tendency to bind. So where else could it be binding?

Is the freeplay in the universal? both are new, Right?

Is the secondary steering shaft too long causing the universal to bind. Mine was 1/8" too long and was binding in the universal. Easy fix.

Self centering. Is the alignment okay?
The steering is not down to the geometry or Ted's IFS or the universals. It's
either the rack itself (unlikely) or the column internals where they go through the dash. Do you have a steering column other than MGB?
The brakes. Peter is going to rethink the whole master cylinder set up and also rework the balance bar because there appears there may be too much rear brakes bias at present. Balance bar is adjustable to balance the bias, should be simple to adjust. You will have to do a bit of testing to get it exact. A remote adjusting system would be great. But I could not find a good solution.
If your master cylinder reservoirs are below the height of the front caliper you may have some drain-back issues causing you to have to pump up the brakes. Raise the reservoirs or use risidual pressure valves to keep about 2psi on the front calipers.

But man, even with the big ole 255 BFGs on the front, the steering (once you get past the initial stickiness) is nicely weighted, and the car just tracks beautifully through corners. Once we get it to behave in a straight line and the brakes start doing their thing, it should be really fun to drive.

Do you have photos showing your steering setup?

Arthur

[Donunder]

Arthur. Hi. Sorry, I'm not ignoring you ....

Christmas has been crazy busy and now we're in the "everything closes down " time of the year, so chasing parts is a lost cause.

When Peter gets back from his Christmas break he'll have a look at your idea of the steering shaft being too long. We had to have a new one fabricated because the kit comes with only a very short splined shaft from the rack. I have three universals in my system although as I said before once the initial stiction is overcome the steering works perfectly to either lock with no more binding...??? The binding occurs only at the limit of the free play around the dead ahead position and then the steering's great except for the fact that it can't overcome the binding as it tries to return to the dead ahead position and subsequently is unable to self-centre. And to answer your question -- yes the original MGB steering is still in place from the steering wheel to the first universal, although it's been shifted an inch to the right and an inch up to allow more left elbow room for me. And yes again, Pete will be having a look to see if the problem lies right there, even though the binding problem only started with the installation of the new IFS. Lots to check... One thing at a time... Patience grasshopper!

Residual valves have already been installed in the brake lines. They come as part of Ted's kit. The balance bar asembly is to be completely rebuilt to try to achieve more front brake bias.

I'll post some photos as soon as I can.

Who was it who said it was only a four bolt installation?

Thanks for your interest and advice mate. Enjoy the holiday season and let's hope that 2012 sees both our cars on the road and performing superbly.

[lal Naja]

Don, Season's greetings to you too.

One other thing to check. If your previous steering setup was MGB steering column to MGB steering rack with the short 8" long intermediate shaft + two universal joints. With no binding.

And now you have MGB Steering column to FastCars rack and the setup is binding.
1: Are you connecting directly from MBG Steering to Fast cars with one new custom length intermediate shaft + 2 universal joints.

2: Are you using old 8" intermediate shaft and another custom intermediate shaft + 1 more universal. Total 3 universals

3: Are the universals properly phased?

EDITED 2015. I changed my intermediate shaft between the MGB column and the FastCars IFS.. I used a DD sliding shaft. Highly recommend this method as the steering is BEAUTIFUL and she goes where you point her.

Arthur

[Donunder]

Arthur,
PM sent.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by Donunder

Who was it who said it was only a four bolt installation?

...let's hope that 2012 sees both our cars on the road and performing superbly.

Me! But that was only for bolting it into the car, not connecting the steering, or brakes, or bias bar, or...

I have been wondering about the brake system, as this was designed for the MG, and may require some rethinking of master cylinders, etc. to get it correct. I'll be interested in what you find.

I agree... hope this is your year! Glad you are keeping us up to date. Best of luck Don!

[Donunder]

Well finally Arnie is back on the road -- picked her up yesterday -- and the result is that I'm very very happy with how it's all turned out. I've driven about 150 miles over the past two days, mainly with a view to bedding in the brakes, and I couldn't be happier with how she's driving.

But don't let anyone kid you that this is a straightforward plug-in exercise -- it isn't!

Pete was in a rush yesterday to go off-shore fishing so I didn't have time to collect the photos he's taken along the way. I'll do that this week and also try to get him to sit down and go through the whole process with me so that I can post something meaningful for you.

In a nutshell, Arnie now goes where she's pointed, the steering is well weighted and a lot quicker than with the old MGB rack, it now self-centres, there's no trace of the initial dreaded slop at straight-ahead and the binding in the steering has gone. The brakes are an improvement on the originals and will continue to improve as the pads and rotors get to know one another better.

More later. Going for another drive now. Sooooo good!

[lal Naja]

Don,

Allow me to be the first here to congratulate you on your successful completion. Well done, I'm glad to hear that it is all falling into place.

I look forward to hearing what foibles you discovered during the process so we don't repeat them.

And most importantly; Hearing about the evolution, with photos and comments, that finally brought you to this point of driving euphoria.

Bonza mate!

Arthur

[lal Naja]

Hello Don.....Anything to report?

I decided to bite the bullet and modify my Butler brake pedal and install a remote brake bias adjuster. It has turned out to be pretty easy so far. I'll have the brake box back in the car by Sunday. Then I'll be figuring the best option on how to run the cable and where to install the adjusting knob in the cockpit.

Hope all else is well.

Arthur

[Donunder]

Well after what seems an eternity and after many requests I’ve finally accepted that try as I might, the guy, Peter, who installed my Fast Cars front end for me either can’t or won’t forward me the photos he took of the work in progress. Pity, because I’m otherwise extremely happy with the amount of thought and effort he put into this project and the quality of his work, but I really would have liked a photo of the original MGB front end sitting next to the new one at the start of proceedings, leading on to shots of “stuff happening”. Maybe he’ll get around to sending them at some time but for now I’ve just taken a few shots of the completed job.

So, to recap, the Fast Cars IFS is now in place, the brakes are working properly after a fair bit of trial and error with the balance bar and wondering if we needed to go to smaller or larger master cylinders (we didn’t), the front sway bar which initially looked like a snow plough and was easily the lowest point on the car has now been “flipped” and new mounting linkages made so that it’s now pointing up and out of the way, and most importantly the steering which was causing all sorts of grief is now working perfectly. While everything was apart a new alloy radiator went in because the old one was weeping terribly and had been repaired at least once before, so the decision to replace it was an easy one.

Here’s the sway bar upside-down and now well up out of the road.


The Fast Cars IFS was originally made for MGB and other British sports car V8 conversions. The Cobra version is basically the same only 2” wider. The IFS wouldn’t fit straight up into my car because the main chassis runners fouled it slightly. Question. To notch the chassis or the IFS? Answer. Take a very small piece out of each side of the IFS and up she goes. (Before you ask, this is one of the things I want to get clear photos of. Pete showed me where he had removed the material and said he’d be taking shots of it for me but now that it’s installed it’s not possible to show you properly.)

Solid brake lines are fabricated


and some lovely stainless flexible lines complete the job,


apart from the installation of a proportioning valve, supplied by Fast Cars, because the master cylinders are mounted under the floor and thus below the bleed nipples.


The brake assembly fits snugly into the original 15” wheels.




The master cylinder area presented problems of its own. There was an awful moment when I was taking the car for its first test run, and almost ran up the back of a little BMW, despite driving very cautiously and giving myself plenty of braking/stopping distance. The brakes were almost totally non-operational!!! After my heart rate returned to normal I became bloody annoyed. I remember thinking that we’ve just installed an IFS that’s about eighty pounds lighter than the old MGB unit, the ancient Girling system has been replaced by state of the art Wilwood callipers and vented discs, so with a lighter front end and far superior brakes, why the hell wasn’t the thing on point of lock-up instead of having next to no stopping power??!!! There were no leaks. We’d used the pads Fast Cars had supplied. Back up on the hoist, remove the cover over the master cylinders and there we find the balance bar is 1) loose! and 2) set so that what we figure is 80% of the braking effort is going to the back brakes! Pete then basically moved the balance bar as far to the left as it would go without fouling the clutch master cylinder and the problem was solved.

Here are the Arntz underfloor master cylinders. It's a two person job bleeding the brakes and a hoist is almost essential.


I then took the precaution of bedding in the brakes pretty thoroughly over a fifteen mile run which brought to light the biggest and most perplexing problem of the entire job….

I’m going from my far from reliable memory here and some day if I can get on to Pete again I’ll try to confirm what the procedure was but…. I remember driving the car for the first time out on the highway where I required it to behave like a normal car and basically point straight ahead unless asked to do otherwise. Up ‘til now I’d been taking it for short runs “around the block” with almost constant steering input. I’d noticed that it seemed much more direct than before but I hadn’t taken too much notice of it--in fact I’d thought it a good thing! On the first highway run the car would not steer straight and alarmingly it would not self-centre. It would say point left and then with very minimal steering correction it would go right, past centre, and keep going right. If I ever managed to get it pointing straight ahead momentarily and relax my grip on the wheel, it would almost instantly head off, either left or right, of its own accord. There was no steering feeling at dead ahead at all and the problem was exacerbated by its having a certain degree of “stiction” or binding at just either side of dead ahead.
The Fast Cars IFS steering rack comes with a universal attached to a very short shaft with a male spline. It is necessary to fabricate a joining piece of steering shaft with the correct (different at each end) splines to connect up with the middle universal joint. This is where my memory becomes hazy but after considering and then rejecting the idea that the rack itself could be binding, Pete deduced that it was the steering’s three universal joints that were binding due to their not being phased properly. He tried disconnecting the unis and refastening them in all manner of positions, depending on whose advice we were listening to at the time, until in the end he decided to replace the original, and sloppy, universal at the top of the shaft, ditch the intermediate one altogether, and have a new shaft made to run directly from the new uni at the top down to the uni on the steering rack. Thank goodness the Arntz motor is set so far back. The new direct-route steering shaft misses the front of the block by about two inches. The steering is now nicely weighted, the new rack comes with gearing that’s just right, and mercifully the car now points and self-centres beautifully!

I’d like to say that all of these little adventures are in no way attributable to the Fast Cars product. Ted Lathrop produces a first class IFS that has been proven over many years. It’s always a bit of a gamble dealing with somebody on the other side of the world, more so when their product is reasonably expensive and is so important to the efficient and safe running of your car – well I think that steering and braking are reasonably important! My son and I had done our homework on this product before deciding to go ahead with the purchase and Ted was most approachable and helpful in my initial inquiries. He kept me up to date with the progress of “my” IFS, commiserated with me when his work load caused a short delay and arranged prompt shipping when it was ready to go. I can thoroughly recommend Fast Cars and their product. Everything from disc to disc is included in the price. The unit arrived exactly as described and very firmly packaged. The only thing you have to sort out is the steering shaft and this obviously varies from car to car.

Finally here’s my good mate Scott (OzVenom) giving the Jag rear end some TLC while I play photographer up the front.


I’m sorry that this report will be found wanting by some of you. I’ll keep trying to get hold of those progress pics and if I do, they’ll be up here pronto together with any further useful technical information about the installation I can glean from Pete.

[Donunder]

Here's another pic of the IFS mounted in place looking up from below.

[lal Naja]

Looks like it belongs. Thanks for the update and the photos.

[Shelby Dave]

Brain just directed me to this 'ol thread.
I just ordered a Fast Cars front IFS assembly 2" wider for my '89 Bennett Cobra.
Thanks for all of the info you guys put into this conversation. I'll be referring back to it as I go along.

[joyridin']

From what I read on their web site, FAST Cars has a new owner, although I suspect he was building them all along.

I put one in my Arntz a year ago. You will love it.

[lal Naja]

Congratulations Shelby Dave. I'm guessing your Bennett Cobra has an MGB IFS. And with that in mind it should be a relatively easy install.

A MUST DO as far as I am concerned, and that is to connect the MGB steering column to the FastCars IFS with one just one intermediate shaft. I monkeyed around with using a splined shaft and now I have used a DD sliding shaft to make this connection. See my Facebook photo album on how I built my Cobra and you will see detail photos of this. Click on my facebook link by my avatar.

Good luck with your install.

Fast cars offers the IFS 2" wider. Does anyone know where it is made wider. Is the K member wider and have the shock towers also been moved outward. Or, are the wishbones made 1" longer? If just the wishbones are made longer then all Butler frames will still need to be notched to make space for the towers, or the towers will need to have the inner back edges trimmed and welded.

[lal Naja]

Looking for updates on your FastCars IFS.

I've put 3800 miles on my IFS and all is good but for one thing. And that is it takes more force than I like to make an initial turn-in, either left or right. I'm thinking It may be due to the caster angle being a little too much and I'm thinking about reducing caster a little and see if there is a reduction in the force needed. Other than that steering is very responsive on street or highway.

I also have 10" wide tires on the front and that results in a rather wide scrub patch which is not central to the theoretical kingpin inclination.

What are your findings and have you experienced the same thing. Would love to know.

[Donunder]

All good from my end!

Apart from the steering being a little heavy at parking speeds, the car is a joy to drive. I'm running 255 series tyres up front and they seem to suit the requirements of the Fast steering perfectly. Initially I wondered at the wisdom of proceeding with this modification seeing that a lot of Arntz owners have chosen to keep the original MGB front end without encountering any major troubles, but I'm now very content that I made the correct decision to jettison the heavier BMC product. Whether it makes any difference I don't know, but I also changed out the original heavy radiator which was developing a series of leaks and replaced it with a lighter alloy version.

After a couple of years the car started to develop creaking noises from the front. All the bolts needed to be tightened, some considerably, and the problem was fixed but a regular inspection of front end bolts is now on the calendar.

[lal Naja]

Don, good to hear from you, Glad the steering is working out for you. I too am loving it an plan on making a few adjustments to see it can soften the angle.

I enjoyed looking at your photos.

Arthur