Buying a Butler

[Rumpolephoreski]

Next weekend I'm going to be looking at a used Butler.
It is a '65 style, but I don't know the production date.
It sports a 302 that (supposedly) puts out 425 HP.
The headers are heat wrapped, holley carb, Shelby manifold, etc.
This car has the MGB front end and Jag rear end.

Can you veterans give me some ideas of what to look for and look out for.
This is my first time dealing with custom built Replica.
I own an older VW/Dunebuggy but that seems world away from a truly custom fabricated car.

Things already on my list:
Heat build up in the footwell
Braking
Ride (how does it handle a rough road - is it an oxcart?)
Footroom in the footwell

I know these are newbie questions but hey you've got to start somewhere.
Any insights will be appreciated.

[PANAVIA]

Just like any car, the Butler should be gone through on a lift with someone you can trust. - it probably has some age and lack of use issues. -

you want to make sure you can check everything out , even the simple stuff.

Fuel tank , mounts , brake lines , cooling, -etc -

as for heat in the footwells you can insulate with a wide variety of materiel. Dynamat, firemat, etc. -

get yourself one of those IR heat gun sensors ( 30-100$ depending on brand ) and you can see how hot things are in certain places.

best of luck on your new toy, - Steve

[joyridin']

Here are a few things I would check. This would relate mostly to "getting the car cheaper" than not buying it altogether.

Check inner and out tie rod ends on front
Check u-joints in steering column
Check rear brakes for wear...if possible, check rotors for thickness. They are a pain to change if you have to do a full brake job
Check front shocks.
Check ALL fluids
Check radiator on outside for deterioration

Be sure to drive it enough to get it to operating temperature and make sure you have no overheating problems. It might take a while for this to happen as they generally have a huge radiator. also, drive it around a few corner and make sure you do not feel any jumping in the rear end. This could cause problems.

A few other things if you have the time, but you REALLY need to know what you are looking for: Rear wheel bearing play. They have some play already, so you would be looking for excessive play. Pretty hard to determine if you have not felt a good set.
Clutch; Is it near the top? Again...kind of hard on these cars due to different master/slave cylinders used. E-brakes; Jag rear axles can be a mess if they aren't correct.

One last item: Check the body for stress cracks. Look around the area where the sidepipes come through the body, around the hood hinges and scoop, and around the fuel cap. They can be fixed, but you probably want to drive the car instead of having to invest $4k or more in a paint job and body work.

Good luck and whether you buy it or not, can you at least post some pictures?

[Rumpolephoreski]

I'm definitely bringing my camera, so I will post pix.
Here's the strange part of this story:
My Fianceewants me to get a sports car.
We've got a dune buggy but she wants something hotter than that.
Who is going to say no?

[decooney]

Originally Posted by Rumpolephoreski

...I own an older VW/Dunebuggy but that seems world away from a truly custom fabricated car....

Actually, its not that far off and a good prerequisite. Things come loose and you already know the difference between a loose car and a tight car if you ever had to spend a lot of time going through all of it making sure the car was safe and not going to come apart on you going down the road.

Buter/Arntz cars can be solid IF they are maintained and someone goes through the ENTIRE car checking everything that is loose or binding or just getting old and degraded. If you do buy the car, plan on spending some serious time or money going through it to make it safe and road worthy.

Also, you may want to invest in a rear tri-bar support for the rear differential if it does not already have one installed. Its a brace system that is purchased or made custom to tie the rear differential to the rear frame in a triangulated manner. It really helps to stabilize the rear of the car under power load or over bumps. The back of the car can get to be pretty skittish and loose without it. I've done a few on the Unique Cobras and for a friends Arntz car, and he upgraded the MGB front and rear with all new shocks and supports. It drives like a different car now and very solid.

Good luck on the adventure.

[lal Naja]

Congratulations on your find. Like buying any car check it out thoroughly.

I have a Butler #42 and I love the way that is is engineered. During my build I have added my touch to enhance it further. You will find the serial number and date of manufacture stamped on the frame on the left side at the very front of the frame by the vertical bracket where the body is bolted to the frame.

You can see some of my build photos here in my albums on this Forum or on Facebook where I have an album that is more up to date.

The engine bay should have two aluminum heat shields between the headers and footwell. You can always add more insulation if heat is an issue. I have blowers in each footwell.

Front suspension. If it needs rebuilding you should seriously consider looking at the front suspension made by FastCars in Michigan. I totaled the cost on what I spent to rebuild my MGB front suspension and the cost of the FastCars IFS was not that much more. So I pulled out the MGB IFS and got rid of it and now have an IFS that is worthy of the car.

There are three of us on this Forum that have FastCars IFS suspensions. Forum User Names: SoTxButler, Russ in Texas. Donunder, Don in Australia + one other guy in Europe. Russ & Don would be happy to comment. Don has the Arntz a pre Butler car.

Russ is also keeping a record of all Butler cars/owners. So if you buy it, let Russ know as we would all like to know where the 103 +- Butlers are. Ron Butler who built these components lives in California. He is retired and still has some components/spare parts in inventory.

Rear suspension is Jaguar XKE/XJ6/XJ12/XJS and is a great suspension. If you ever rebuild you may want to get rid of the needle bearings and needle thrust bearings. There are a number of companies that create rebushing kits using modern synthetic materials.

The butler frame is STRONG. And can handle a lot of power.

Depending on how you plan to drive the car you may want anti-sway bars on the front and the back if not already fitted. If the front has one the FastCars IFS should mate with it should you make this upgrade.

Good luck and I look forward to hearing back when you are the new owner.

Arthur

[Rumpolephoreski]

To all,
I've been doing a lot of research and looking at a lot of Cobras by various manufacturers.
I'm surprised at how many live rear axles I've come across.
To me a live rear axle negates the car being a Cobra.
Is it safe to assume when people talk about Cobras riding like oxcarts they're talking about versions with live rear axles?

I'm already contemplating the FASTCARS IFS.
But no sense putting the cart before the horse.

[joyridin']

No. They have a really short wheelbase. They tend to ride rough regardless of the suspension, but a solid rear axle surely won't help the situation. The Arntz/Butler cars are a bit different. They are considered a mid-engine more than a front engine due to how far the engine sits back in the compartment. You will clearly see this when you open the hood. This makes for lighter steering with the manual box and better riding because the rear-end isn't bouncing around on every crack in the street.

The Arntz/Butler Cobra is probably one of the best built Cobras out there assuming some care has been given to it over the years. Out of most of the replica manufacturers, if you ever get in an accident, you would want to be in an Arntz/Butler.

[Rumpolephoreski]

I just checked my dune buggy it's got an 80 inch wheel base.
Isn't a Cobra around 90 inches?

I've done a lot of research and I've found two Butlers within 100 miles.
I've also found a Factory Five about 30 miles away that I want to check out for comparison purposes.

For the being I'm leaning toward the Butlers because of their heritage , period detail, and construction.

[Buzz]

Butler Cobras are solidly built and will deliver a good solid feel if properly built and cared for. The only potential weak link is the MGB front suspension and it sounds like you're onto that.

My older Unique had the same front and rear suspensions but I tossed the MGB setup in favor of Unique's own coil over IFS and upgraded the Jag rear with their triangulated rear trailing arms. The difference was remarkable.

I don't know whose Cobras ride like oxcarts - mine sure doesn't - but that is likely due to donor-car suspensions with shocks, springs and sway bars designed for cars that are almost twice the average Cobra's weight.

I enjoy a nice, firm ride in my car with only a front sway bar. I elected to leave the rear bar off in favor of keeping some compliance in the rear suspension. This setup delivers a supple ride with a small amount of body roll; and the extra articulation in hard turns allows the IRS to do its job and keep the inside rear tire planted when I get on it early and hard exiting the corner.

The goal of eliminating all body roll often leads to excessive suspension stiffness which contributes to snappy oversteer, produces a harsh ride and is just not the ideal setup for a short, light sportscar with independent suspension.