MGB Front Suspension

[1cobralover]

Taking a break and thought I'd look at some e-mail been out in the garage machining some parts for the Arntz

Before you guys go out and spend all those pounds. I'm working on a frontend mod so I can still use the MGB cross-member, Looks close to Hawks frontend but its a bolt-in but with a GM spindle. That way you can go out and get a Bear PBR or Wilwood set-up. Still is a front steer car. I had gotten a set-up from Butler, where you just use the two arms from the MGB shock and a mount he made. Well when G&S went under I lost all but the mounts and have been looking into how I could use them with out the MGB arms and spindle and beside I hate the idea of having to have the chevy rotors machined every time I change them.

So what you think?


Steve

[rdorman]

I to am going to the hawk setup hopefully this winter. It uses the stock cross member with some modifications.

Have any of you talked to the people at Unique? They made cars for years using the MG front end and have an entirely new front suspension bolt in replacement for the MG unit. EVERYTHING, crossmember (new tube type job), to rack, to brake, etc. I can't see why it wouldn't work on your cars. Give them a call.

I have Wilwoods on MG spindles. You have to change them a little but they work fantastic.

Rick

[65 Blur]

Rick,

I talked to Maurice @ Unique last week. He thinks thier unit will work in the Butler. I need to give him the outside measurement of the frame to verify.

I am concidering both options now for the winter project. After adding brakes and shipping from Hawk they are not that far off.

Question - why did you choose the Hawk over the Unique unit?

Roy

[rdorman]

It was more a matter of budget and my impatience then anything else. If I had to do it over again I would have just bought the whole new front end
Rick

[Monster]

This is a great thread for us "original replica owners" (after all Arntz was the first).

I was wondering how your front ends are currently set up. Maybe we can learn something from each others current setup.

I have:

MGB crossmember with stock oilshocks and lower A-arms. Nylatron bushings, stock spindles, 11" Chevy rotors, 4 piston JFZ calipers and HD springs (not sure what weight but they are not stock)

The bushings helped out, JFZ is out of business and I would like to change them out due to they drag at times. I did retro-fit a 1" anti-sway bar, but I broke the one of the aluminum heim joints I use to mount it (probably need steel). But it did help the handling quite a bit however it may have been a bit to stout. Also, I am running 275/50's up front which I feel are to wide and make steering a chore. I will change over to 245's on the next set. I do like your 17" wheels though, Pete.

so how are you setup??

Thanks,
Mike

[Chifo Jr]

I am using the MGB front crossmember which has an access hole cut thru it to pass my lower radiator tube (and reduce weight ) I modified the lower control arms by adding a strip of steel to the existing arms to box in the standard channel and stiffen things up a bit. I replaced the standard rubber bushings with nylatron inserts. The springplate was modified to allow for fittment of a 1" front swaybar. Mine is mounted a bit unique in that it terminates on top of the springplate rather than below it where it can collect all kinds of trash on the road. I replaced the standard lever type shocks and upper control arm with a unit I fabricated which replaces the lever shock but retains the control arm. I also mounted an outboard shock mount on the lower control arm and chassis to use koni adjustables. (does anyone know which shocks Butler used?) Brakes are the camaro rotor / dodge dart caliper set up which Butler used. All in all I am pretty happy with the setup. If anyone would like pics let me know with your email and I'll send them off...

[rdorman]

Mine is pretty much stock MG with a few exceptions. Heavy duty springs, V8 bushings. The 'valve' on the level shocks has been taken apart and put back in to disable the level shock and tube shocks added that connect to a bracket the bolts in place throught the outer level shocks mounting bolts on the top and to the lower a-arm on the bottom (much better ride and handling than the level shocks). The sway bar is not a stock mg piece and I have no idea what it came from. It bolts through the bottom of the lower a-arm and mounts in non-stock location. The 'lever' length of each bar is much shorter than that on an MG. When I go the Hawk front suspension I will replace it with a stock location but adjustable bar. I will also be doing what ever is required to minimize bump steer and maximize ackerman.

The brakes are all wilwood using dynolight billet calipers with 10.75 (like the GM rotors) but I am changing the rotors to 12.19 this winter as well to get the brake effort where I would like it to be.

For those of you with the MG column as well, you can change out those loosy plastic and felt 'bearings' for caged needle bearings. I outlined the process in a tech tip some time ago. Easy and cheap to do.

I have found places on the net that offer both offset bushings and the greasable nylon kind so that you can get a little camber in the front end and eleminate bushing play with bushings that don't sqeek like crazy. Cambridge Motorsports, Rally Design, Fab-Tek, Speed Well Engineering all come to mind. As well as Moss which also has a coil-over kit (appears as though it is back) but it does not look to be up to the standard of the hawk unit.

British Automotive in California has the Hawk set up for $945 and an optionial hardware, etc kit for $250.

If I remember correctly the Hawk unit increases your front track by 5/8" (good thing) so keep it in mind.

For those of you running the GM rotors I have a pair of four pot Girling calipers with EBC greenstuff pads for sale. The bolted directly to me MG spindles and matched up nicely to the GM rotors. They are in the parts for sale forum and I am not looking for much more than the pads cost for everything.

The Unique route I think even includes a new flaming river rack as well as the brakes etc so if it fits, it would be a one shot way to update the entire front end.

I run 245/60 and 275/60 and the car feels pretty well balanced without undue steering effort.

Any one know what would be good wheel rates for these cars? Not a track car but a cruiser that sees some very, very spirited driving at times.

Rick

[Monster]

Pete,

I just checked a G&S brochure that I had and it lists Koni. Since I'm sure they didn't have time to re-engineer anything that's probably what Butler used. The brochure also has some pretty good pictures of the front suspension and brakes (Marty Kruger's car, I believe he is still in Reno and he was also quite knowlegable on a number of parts for Butler, I believe he was associated with G&S doing sales/promotion, haven't seen him since last year). There appears to have been an option fo either "Wilwood 12"/4 piston caliper or 13"/6 piston Grand National brake systems. Standard was the 11"GM rotor/brake combination. Also, when I went down to G&S to pick up some parts, I saw the routing for the lower rad. hose and did the same pass-thru on my x-member. I used a slip-in piece of 1 1/2" tubing instead of welding in case I had a leak problem with the tube it would be an easy fix. I got my sway bar from Kruger and it sounds like we mounted them in a similar fashion. From the rear side of the frame on the 45 angle and mounted to the top side of the lower A-arms.

Rick,
why did you pull off the 4-piston calipers you have for sale? I may be interested since as I said the JFZ's I have drag and there are no rebuild parts I'm aware of plus the connection for the brake line is in the middle of the caliper which is to close to my anti-sway bar ends.

Thanks,
Mike

[rdorman]

I took of the girling calipers for a couple of reasons. The primary one is for some reason I had trouble fitting a rotor to the spindle. The old rotors where shot. Every rotor I mounted up left the outer bearing inner race slightly over the threaded section of the spindle. The rotors all worked in relationship to the caliper but I was not comfortable with the bearing placement.

So I made the decision to get the three peice rotor setup from Wilwood and machine the hub so that it better fit my application. That way when I needed a new rotor they where easily obtainable. After pricing out the peices to do this it was within a few bucks of just buying a complete kit from a discount house like Jegs. So I thought, why not! I had to make a caliper adaptor for the wilwoods to fit but that is not a big deal.

If you need some part number, measurements, etc, let me know. If I recall correctly they are 1.625" pistons. Also if I recall correctly, these run about $175 each rebuilt and about $400 new. Plus the pads that come with them where pushing $100. These need nothing but a new home! They where purchased from NAPA about two years ago and the calipers had about 3 or 4 thousand miles put on them but the pads have probably about 500 miles on them and the are a very long wearing, no dust, high CF, Kevlar pad.

Thanks

Rick

[Chifo Jr]

Mike,

Thanks for the response. I will need to replace my Koni shocks as they seem to be very tight on the rebound stroke. Compression stroke feels ok but the car is riding like the front end is linked solid. When I tested the shocks off the car, you can barely pull the shock open even in the softest setting.

It is a pleasure to see that there are still some enthusiasts with the Arntz/Butler/Bennett/G&S lineage. I am the proud owner of Bulter number 000 which is the first Butler built, unless you consider Rons car the first which I understand was an Arntz. It is amazing how many people have no idea what these cars represent. Quite possibly the by-product of FFR tremendous efforts in marketing and the donor concept. Quite frankly I think Ron invented the "Donor Concept" as I donated a considerable amount of cash towards his livelyhood While I may be a bit biased in my opinion, I consider our cars to be the best engineered from the standpoint of chassis (save JBL) and body. Does anyone know if the Artnz was in fact the original replica? I thought I had heard that there was one predessesor?

At any rate lets keep this community alive!

[rdorman]

I read some where that a company called Allied Fiberglass was making them in the late 60's. After that I would think it would be Butler, Arntz and then Unique. Which certainly explains a lot of the similarities between my car and and the Arntz/Butler's out there. I am not entirely sure when my car was built but it was in the latter half of the 80's.
Rick

[Chifo Jr]

Interesting... The order that you have is a bit off though. Arntz actually preceeded the Butler. So the Unique is similar in what ways?

[rdorman]

Got the order wrong! I am certainly no expert on the replica industry history.

As for the Unique similarity the only thing I know for sure is the MG front end. How many manufacturers used the MG front suspension?

Rick

[Monster]

The MGB was the original "donor" car. Back in 69, dad had a 57Volvo ( I was pre-drivers license) and he gave me the car ,not running, and we thought it would be cool to put in a V8. I had a part time job at a foreign car repair shop and there was a MGB parts car and the owner gave me the front suspension for our project. See my gallery for the end result.

I still have the car but it's seen better days and now I'm getting ready to do a rebuild with my youngest son (he's 15).

Mike

[Tom Howland]

I'm the 3rd owner of an Arntz cobra. Purchaced in 78' , completed in 80'. I've had it 3 years. Just completed changing out the MBG front end to 86' vette upper and lower A arms with coil overs. Tremendous difference in handling. No more scary left right twitch when decelerating in a corner. No sway bar, don't think it needs one. 500# springs with Pro shocks. I've got some old sales info for the car, different exploded views of the car. The XKE rear end is making funny noises so next week I take it in for a look see. Tom

[rdorman]

Tom, how was that done. Do you have some pics?
Thanks
Rick

[Tom Howland]

Rick, A whole new front frame clip was welded up and installed. It was a big deal. Paul Bennet in Fremont, CA made the clip. Gordon Levy in Tempe, AZ installed it. I'll try doing pictures tonight. Tom

[Monster]

Tom,
Welcome to our Arntz/Bennett/Butler forum

It would be interesting to see some photos. Place them up in your gallery if you have some. Did Paul Bennet move from Hayward?

Thanks,
Mike

[Tom Howland]

Rick, Mike, until I do my photo gallery you can go to http://homepage.mac.com/tomhowland/PhotoAlbum4.html and do a slide show. Paul did the clip 4/01 and I haven't talked to him since. I knew he was going to retire cause he kept trying to sell the business to me. It would be interesting to see if the army tanks took over. Tom

[Tom Howland]

Here's my first try at posting pictures. I have pictures in my gallery now and I can snap more pictures if you request. Tom

Is it not possible to post from CC/gallery?