What Brake master??

Monster · #1 (**permalink**) 08-04-2003, 11:23 AM

Well,
I just found another "left over" problem from the previous assembly that was done before I got my car. Though my car wasn't streetable when I got it, the brake system had been installed and appeared to be ok. I have always had a "growl" noise up front when backing up but it would go away and the brake seemed ok. Well, this weekend I finally got around to checking out the cause of this noise and found that the fronts were actually staying engaged after the peddle was released. My investigation on a number of sites provided some useful info on brake systems. ( the best info came from http://www.911brakes.com which has good design and troubleshooting info)). My system is Ford type (Mustang) dual master, this master was designed for Drum type brakes and there is a residual 10lb. left on the system after the pedal is released (the source of my drag. I also found that the cylinder was plumbed incorrectly (master rear to front system and front to rear) So I need to re-plumb my lines and get a Ford type Disc brake master .

take care,
Mike

65 Blur · #2 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 11:57 AM

Mike,

I have no idea what brand these are - there is a 1" for the clutch, 3/4" for the fronts, and 5/8" for the rears. The bottles are mounted on top of the footbox and are a real b*&ch to fill. One bottle goes to the clutch and rear, the other for the front. They work OK, and are easy to adjust the balance.

Anyone have a set-up like this?

65 Blur · #3 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 12:03 PM

Here are the reservoirs.

Fred Douglass · #4 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 01:27 PM

...at some point, if things are showing up that you don't like or understand, call Ron Butler himself (805) 649-6000. He ualwaysu answers the phone AND your questions---truly a good guy. I have just swapped in my brand new Butler -modified front axle assembly (MGB with 6-pot Wilwoods)---have the old one for sale. Ditto 351 Cleveland long-block.

Blur just proved why a single-car-type site is valuable!

Fred Douglass · #5 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 01:33 PM

...at some point, if things are showing up that you don't like or understand, call Ron Butler himself (805) 649-6000. He ualwaysu answers the phone AND your questions---truly a good guy. I have just swapped in my brand new Butler -modified front axle assembly (MGB with 6-pot Wilwoods)---have the old one for sale. Ditto 351 Cleveland long-block.

Blur just proved why a single-car-type site is valuable!

Fred Douglass · #6 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 01:35 PM

Mike the "ualwaysu" is actually Polynesian for "always"---(okay, truthfully)---I just deeskuvred thet yuh cain't oondalean wurdz own this sat!).

rdorman · #7 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 01:51 PM

Those are Tilton master cylinders and reservors. Available from True Choice for 65, 19 for rebuild kits.
Rick

rdorman · #8 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 01:59 PM

Tell me about the Butler modified front axle assembly please!
Rick

65 Blur · #9 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 02:16 PM

That helps. Ever seen the reservoirs mounted like that?

Fred - any pics of the Butler upgraded front you put in. I am still working with Maurice at Unique on measuring for their unit's fit.

Thanks,

rdorman · #10 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 02:27 PM

Are your master cylinders under the floor? Never seen them mounted quite like that. Interesting though. Move them up to the fire wall. There is a 'L' bracket that those reservors can sit on and mount to the fire wall.

Bill Emerson has a MG replacement front end as well. I put up a post asking for details.

I am anxious to here about this Butler modified axle as well. Hopefully the intent of this axle was not just to put on the Wilwoods. The stock axle will work.

Rick

65 Blur · #11 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 02:42 PM

Yes, the shot is from the ground up. There is a box bolted to the frame that hold the pedels, and levers and cylinders. The levers push the plunger back when the pedels are depressed. I think relocating the reservoirs to the firewall would not be a big deal - just rerouting the hoses and getting some brackets.

rdorman · #12 (**permalink**) 08-05-2003, 02:51 PM

Use the holes left over in the foot box for some foot box cold air!

True Choice or any Tilton dealer can get you what you need. Just keep them away from heat and remember how flamable the fluid can be! Mine are directly over top the headers! Not real thrilled with that!

I would prefer if mine where floor mounted. Maybe someday!

Rick

Fred Douglass · #13 (**permalink**) 08-06-2003, 08:52 PM

..the "new" Butler modified MGB has: coils AND shocks---but they're not coils-over-shocks---the shocks are on separate tags welded to the upper A-arm. There are Wilwood 6-pot calipers and these require (sometimes) a wheel-spacer so 15" rims clear the large Wilwood calipers. The old ones had this weird piston-and-reservoir doo-dads on top of the upper suspension arms. These are strange but work perfectly(?!), albeit they needed pedal-travel adjustment..

I'm off to God's Country (that's Maine for us Easterners)

for a week or so. After that, I'll photo and post the two axels. The new one is already in---but the old one's in its "coffin" ready for shipment, if someone wants to buy it.

Monster · #14 (**permalink**) 08-07-2003, 02:00 AM

Well,
It's late and I've been trying to get this brake thing sorted out so I could go play with the boy's up at HON (Hot August Nights). I drilled out the residual valve (it wouldn't come out of the MC) and I found that though it corrected the dragging, I now had spongy pedal. I went over to the parts store an got a vaccum type bleeder and now I have no pedal unless I pump it up. Sooooo, I'm going to install a 4-wheel disc MC in the AM and hope that fixes things. I'm thinking that a 2# residual valve (normal for disc applications) is necessary to hold line pressure and I currently have 0# which is why I get brakes once I pump them up.

wheel c inda mourning

mike

rdorman · #15 (**permalink**) 08-07-2003, 07:03 AM

Mike if you master cylinder is lower than the calipers that will definiatly happen.

Rick

Monster · #16 (**permalink**) 08-07-2003, 11:25 PM

So I decided that I should go with the 4-wheel disc master drove 85 mille round trip EARLY this AM so that I could install the new master and still meet up with the folks going to HON. Well I got back in record time installed the new master and found that it DIDN'T have ANY residual valves. Called my local parts house and they had Wilwood #2 valves.........at $25 each. So I figure that what the heck I need them and I may at this point be able to catch up with the caravan at their lunch stop. Get everthing ( new plumbing is required for the valves), bleed the system and SAME THING. brakes start off low and a couple of pumps they are at the top. I tried every consievable bleeding method adn finally after talking to a local long time brake specialist who advised pressure bleeding back through the bleeder toward te master.I found that my new brake bleed/Mini-vac also had a pressue side so I tried it. I now have moderately good pedal, it comes up a bit when pumped but I will check in the AM to see how it is. I feel that if they stay as they are that they are safe and any residual air will work to a bleed point or be discharged back through the M/c.. I have already decided that this winter will be front suspension and the rest of my new braking system (calipers).

BTW: If the brakes are stlill good in the AM I'll finally be off to HON

later (time to wash this brake fluid smell away.

,
Mike

Monster · #17 (**permalink**) 08-10-2003, 11:48 PM

Well,
The brakes were good enough to go ...............so I went. Had a great time saw some REALLY nice cars.

Brakes are still so-so (I'll continue to work this issue.)

Mini-starter decided to act up (would only start 40% of the time) I've got it out and will take it to the builder this week, he has already comitted to replace it at n/c though its 3yrs old...great folks that stand behind their work.

Ran over a 10/penny nail

but lucked out and caught a great tire shop owner just before closing that fixed the tire and didn't even want me to pay: "I'm just glad I got a chance to see one of these Cobra's up close"...I paid him anyway.

Fan wire came off so the car started getting hot while sitting still (go figure

) so I just kept driving fast

But besides these small issues things were great.

I did a mileage check since this was a chance to see what improvement the Tremec was over my Toploader...............Toploader was 13.5MPG, Tremec was 17.1MPG up and 18.5MPG back.......not bad milage for a big Block

Later Mike

Chifo Jr · #18 (**permalink**) 08-11-2003, 09:03 AM

Mike:

I am using CNC master cylinders 5/8 front and 3/4 rears on mine. They have a cap on the top of the reservoir body for filling. These are all mounted to the standard brake balance bar set up. I fabricated an aluminum plate to place over a cutout in the floor to access for filling. All I do is unsnapp the carpet, turn four Dzus fasteners and access the cylinders.

I am not using a residual pressure valve with my system and it works great. I am using jag rears and dodge dart front calipers. If you need a 2lb valave let me know, I have a brand new valve I anticipated having to use but I wont need it. Its yours if you send your address

Regards,

Pete Chifo, Jr.

Monster · #19 (**permalink**) 08-11-2003, 10:30 AM

Pete,
Thanks for the offer on the residual valves but to late, in trying to get the car back on the road to get to HON , I just kept throwing money at the problem ( new master, residual valves w/ new fittings lines ect) ,mini-vac bleeder and with all that I still have moderate brakes with some air in the lines. I also have the same access as what you discribed which has been very helpful. The problem which has been pointed out, is that the master is below the calipers and high points of the lines. This is causing air to get trapped above the MC which makes bleeding very difficult. I have the front end jacked up about 2 1/2 feet (under the front tires) trying to get the air to move toward the MC. I'll get at it again tonight.

later,
Mike

Chifo Jr · #20 (**permalink**) 08-11-2003, 10:50 AM

When I bled my lines Ron Butler suggested removing the calipers from the mounts and then bleeding which I did. The result was two passes and I have a very solid pedal. You may want to try this... Also I removed the lines first and ran fluid thru an open line until I saw a solid stream. Just hold your finger over the line end to stop from sucking air back into the line. It is a two man (not a man and woman) job

. By the way I am sure you know to start with the right rear then left rear. Right front then left front. Adjustment of the balance bar assembly is also important in getting the right proportioning.

Added by edit: If all else fails consider putting a pressurized line into the top of your reservoir cover (I made a special cover you can use) and put some air pressure on the reservoir and then bleed. I had to do this the first time years ago.