My continuing overheating saga

[Chifo Jr]

Well after I have exhausted what seems to be all the easy (though not least costly) fixes I still have the hottest Butler around. Seems like my next step is to remove the heads. I really didnt want to do this but I think its my last option. Any thoughts on the best head gaskets to use on a 351C?

[bigmike]

Before you tear into the motor, listen to my saga.....
I have the hottest 428 around, or at least had the hottest.
Typically, I would boil over in traffic and run about 220 to 230 on the freeway...very frustrating!!
I added a rubber air dam all around the radiator to seal the nose air intake to force all of the air through the radiator. Guess what? I dropped a solid 40 degrees in all modes. 175 to 185 on the freeway, and 200-220 on the street, in 100 degree weather. I was amazed at the change. Might not be your problem, but certainly worth a try.
BigMike

[Chifo Jr]

Thanks for the input Mike...

I have a shroud and dam on the fan/radiator as well as filler plates along the sides of the radiator so I am fairly confident that I am getting full airflow (3000 cfm) thru the core.

[Monster]

Pete,
refresh us on the symptoms.

When does it get hot?
Doe it just climb and climb? Can you idle and stay cool or does it get cooler when you drive then heat up when you slow down? Have you preformed any tests?
cylinder leak-down test?
System pressure test,( does it hold pressure when you pressurize the system? Does pressure build beyond 14PSI? Have you checked for exhaust gas in the coolant ?
Have you verified that your gauge is accurate?
Could you have a collapsing hose?
As for gaskets I prefer Fel-Pro Performance Head Gaskets ($60/set from Summitt) a bit more pricey but they provide a solid product.

good luck.........I'm chasing a similar gremlin on my sons car AND I checked the gaskets, replaced waterpump, radiator, hoses, fan, pressure checked, flushed and it still gets hot when we go over 50MPH.

take care,
MIke

[Bill V]

Crack open a cold one and take 15 minutes to take look at this thread. Perhaps you can benefit from it. I know you've been battling it out with this thing for a while. Good luck with it.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/t194...-&pagenumber=1

[Chifo Jr]

Bill V:

It is now 12:45PM. I have finished 6 beers, and the car is still overheating . I think I will give the edelbrock water pump a try before pulling the heads.

Mike:

Here is a chronology and the symptoms.

I fired the motor with the body off and broke in the cam for about 20 minutes. The temperature at fast idle with both the 14" fan and an auxillary fan was between 190 and 200. After I shut down and restarted and blipped the throttle a bit the temperature climbed to over 220 and I shut it down. I did find that I did not have the proper t-stat and that has been changed. I did also change out the fan to the one you recommended and refilled the system with water and a bottle of water wetter. I started the car again and the temperature climbs to 180 and stays for a few minutes at idle. The electric fan comes on at 190 but then the temp continues to climb. I let it cool down and then drove the car for a few miles at 40+ mph. Temp continues to climb. I dont believe that it is the fan or radiator. The radiator is relatively new and had been cleaned during my rebuild a year or so ago. It flows well when I put a hose thru it. While I dont notice any bubbles in the upper line when I remove the cap, it does surge as I increase rpm but I am thinking that is just a function of increased flow at higher rpm. I am going to check the jets for sizing and pull some plugs to see what they look like and repost. If this car wasnt so pretty I would put the cover on it and forget about it for a while! I am geting pretty pissed and frustrated.

[hcollado]

Check the water pump. Another member (Roscoe) had a similar experience and he had a bad water pump that had been assembled backwards.

Good luck.

[Chifo Jr]

I just noticed a very strange occurance. I topped my system and just ran it from a cold start. The temp rose normally and when it reached 190 and when the fan switch closed to energize the fan the temp gauge immediately shot up to 240. It looks like this may well be an electrical problem... Isnt that just great? I am off to get a new gauge to wire in separately to confirm the temperature.

[Monster]

Pete,

It sounds like a possible flow problem.

As I said before the waterpump did help me.
On the radiator, even though "The radiator is relatively new and had been cleaned during my rebuild a year or so ago. " I have found that a couple of things can influence it's ability to function properly. ( On my sons car we had/have a new 3-core [2-core was standard], after 30min of running we found that deposits in the engine had come free and were causing a 25% blockage) This is primarily due in some cases to the engine (or radiator in your case) sitting dry for a period of time. I bought a filter (I'll post the name when I get home) that fits in the upper hose. I was amazed at what the filter caught after multiple flushes with the usual chemical flush kits. (Chunks of rust, sand from the original casting, calcium flakes all of which would have surely clogged the rad again. Other checks are a malfunctioning t-stat and/or collapsing lower hose (this is where a vaccum is created by the water pump to pull coolant out of the rad.- the higher the RPM's the more vaccum that is created) timing, and then you get into the tests I mentioned prevviously.

Another place to check is are you "burping" all of the air out of the engine? If you have a plug on the intake remove it while filling and this will help get the air out (replace it when coolant starts coming out ).

take care we'll get it......I'm gonna try putting a spring in the lower hose of my sons car (havent' tried that one yet).

Mike

[Bill V]

Chifo, hcollado is right about Roscoe. The link I put up was Roscoe describing what seems like the exact problem you're having. Roscoe provided a story for the the latest (September) issue of Kit Car magazine entitled "Coolin' It" which runs down every step of his nightmare in a more concise manner than his original thread. What he found, according to the article, was that the Edelbrock 8844 waterpump he was running with was designed for a 351 Cleveland. The only problem was that Roscoe had a 351 Windsor in his A & C Cobra replica. The problem went away once he installed the Edelbrock 8841, the right one for a 351 Windsor. The kicker is that the two pumps look very much alike. Anyway, it's possible that your problem is something similar.

Do yourself a favor, before you tear anything more off that engine or needlessly sink anymore money into unnecessary parts, check and see what water pump you have currently and make sure that it's the correct one for your application. Hang in there.

[jwoodard]

may be electrical. Check your grounds and make sure they are making a good clean connection. Are the grounds on your gauges all ganged together into one connection? If so, what size is that wire?
If the temperature only rises after the fan comes on it truly sounds like it might be electrical.

[Monster]

Well, I think I have found the source of our elusive overheating problem. Now to recap, the engine was flushed multiple times had all compoments replaced and rechecked and still when running at 45MPH or higher the engine temp would climb to 220+. All check came out OK no compression leaks or other leaks so what could it have been??? Take a look




Look what I found when I removed the freeze plugs.These are up to 1/8" thick (to big to pass through the cooling ports in the head or block, but plenty big enough to stop circulation around the heads or to block a passage under high waterpump pressure. These appear to be casting flashing that rusted and and finally broke loose. Caused by running the block with water only back in the 60's.

I will know for sure this weekend when the engine is back in the car.

Take care,
Mike

[Bluesman]

I too had overheating gremlins. It started when I moved
from the cool coastal region to the central valley where temps
get well over 100 degrees.
The radiator that comes with the Butler kit (at least mine anyway)
is a 6 core and thick as a brick. It works fine at 70 miles per hour plus. You then, with the help of a shrouded electric fan, could actually get air all the way through it.
I installed a simple (thinner) Griffin aluminum 2 core. I think a 22 X 19" is the correct size. 160 degree stat. If the water pump transfers the coolant to fast through the system, this also will not allow the coolant enough time to cool through the radiator.

[CowtownCobra]

I run mine without a thermostat. Never drive in a frigid climate, always warm it up before driving. It was the only way I could get all (or most) of the air out of the system. Seems to work fine.

[Bruce Robles]

Some water of the new pumps with serpintine belts spin backwards from V-belt driven pumps. Find out if you have the right pump. Also race pumps usually have 6 vains instead of 8 as used on street cars to stop cavitation at high RPM, is your pump pulley the proper size? If is smaller than stock you might look into a 6 vain pump. Ford has them in the Racing and Performance Parts Cat. or call thier Tech "HOT LINE" (586) 468-1356.

Sounds like you might have stumbled on to an electrical glitch. Have you heard of TEMPLATES? The are peel and stick little deals with 4 differnt temp. sensitive dots on them. They come in variables of 20 degrees, in a variety of temperature ranges. Can put them on your block, radiator both in and out, and see whats happening. For example, lets say if the 180 degree dot has gone off, and the 200 degree dot has not, then your temp. is between 180 and 200. They are great for checking temps on your trans. and diff. or anything else for that matter.

Most Road Racing Accesories stores have them. Try PEGASUS RACING for one, or there are many adds in mags. devoted to road racing. Good Luck,