Butlers with Clevelands

[Fred Douglass]

I was wondering how many Butler owners out there got their cars with Clevelands in them. I know three guys already, but have also heard that some came with Chevy engines and some even with automatics in them(!). Ron Butler built in a monstrous tranny hump for that very application! I am doing a lot to my car, and one of the things may be to reduce the width of this hump.

The other quesiton deals with the Cleveland itself.I have heard that it's wise to stay under 400ci in stroking it. I am going to 393ci, but some people have gone out to 408. I'd be interested in finding what other Cleveland owners have, or have done, to their engines, re displacement.

PS I like this site ever since it was started and have found it to be tremendously informative. Keep it up!

[767Jockey]

Fred,
I've been knee deep into Cleveland research since I bought my car with a Cleveland in it. Drop me an email and we'll talk. Right now 408 is about the limit due to thin cylinder walls, excessive rod angles and the connecting rod pin intruding into the ring land area. However, there's a brand new Cleveland block that's going to be introduced shortly that is allegedly going to allow overbores up into the 460 cu. in. area. The biggest limitation on making the Cleveland larger is that the overbore is only .030 max. Lots more will be available with this new block. It'll be available in cast iron and aluminum as well. Aluminum will come first. It's a great engine, sort of a small block with big block canted valve heads. With the new aluminum head technology out of Australia, the old Cleveland bugaboo of all top end power and nothing at low revs is long gone. 600+ Horsepower and a table flat torque curve is common and cheap, available with a cash outlay of as little as $8K, all at only 408 cu. in.

[Fred Douglass]

767,

Couldn't extrapolate your e-mail address from this site. Mine's "douglassf@aol.com".

I like the idea of the aluminum 460-potential Cleveland---who's making it? World Products offers a 460 in both Fe AND aluminum---but right now, I have to stick with my cast-iron four bolter. I'm going out to (only) 393ci, via a Scat stroker kit, but Dave Storlein of Porting Dynamics says that the CHI (Aussie) 3V aluminum heads he sent me will: a) allow a 11.25 compression ratio WITHOUT detonation (!?) and b) absolutely ensure that I'll get c. 575 hp and bushels of low-end torque.

Basically, that's all I need or want. A friend has an oldish FFR (which I wouldn't take for free) and he's stuffed a 509 (!?!) cubic inch stroked 427 into it with all kinds of trick stuff on it. He gets 700+ "tractable" hp and equally lofty torque numbers. He can't even drive it on the Cape Cod twisties unless he "raw eggs" the throttle pedal. I have driven his car----you watch the Tach at ALL times, look for tire smoke in the mirrors and drive like it's just rained on an oily road. Not my idea of a fun drive. Of course he's only got 275s on the back but I don't think even 295s would help.

I think (and hope) I'll be happy with my engine. If I'm tired with it after a few years, I'll definitely opt for the big Cleveland--just hope to buy it all complete!

Hang onto that Contemporary! They're about as rare as Butlers around here!



Right now, I'm taking things slow, but will be hummin' by

[Fred Douglass]

...by March (I meant to say)......

[767Jockey]

Fred,
AE340B@aol.com
Doug

[RACER X #99]

Guys, why screw around with the Cleveland block when you can put your Cleveland or the new Edelbrock Cleveland heads on a World products or Dart Windsor block.
The WP or Dart can be bored to 4.185 with still a .25 liner wall.
Plus you get the better priority oiling that the Windsor offers.
What's the love affair with the Cleveland block?


BTW ALL Nascar Fords are Windsors with Cleveland style heads.

The Saleen S7 is a 427 Windsor with Cleveland heads.

Nobody is using the Cleveland block in professional racing.

And last but not least Ford stopped making them because they were POS

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

What's the love affair with the Cleveland block?

As a lifetime Ford guy, I don't consider the Cleveland as my favorite, I lean toward FEs. I have built many of them as wll as the other Ford engines, and the difference between the Cleveland and the combination you discuss is the water passages. Now, it is a minor convenience, but Clevelands route the coolant through the block and not the intake. This means you can swap intakes all day,if you are so inclined, without ever draining the coolant. Kind of a nice feature really. All the combinations you mention, while having superior oiling,etc. revert to the Windsor style cooling passages. So, if someone is casting a good Cleveland replacement block, all the Cleveland components can be used, instead of just the heads. Intake manifolds,waterpumps, oil pans,distributors,etc. can be used. If you go with a Windsor based block, the heads are the only things you could retain...after modifying them. The rest is now worthless....well the distributor works in a 460.

[Fred Douglass]

Well, I think I am stuck with the Cleveland block (POS) as it is, but I DO appreciate your input. I was really intrigued that you cconsidered the Cleveland an inferior block, Cranky, because I respect your knowledge/experience, etc. and would like to know its flaws or bad characteristics. Nonetheless, it's the block I've got---and will have.

Thanks for the input. Add more if you want! I still (ultimately) want to go with a World Products 460-----but that will be a few years down the line!

[767Jockey]

The W and C blocks both have their drawbacks. All in all the W block is probably the better unit. However, that being said, by putting C heads on a W block you now have what's called a "Clevor". The problem with that is that neither W nor C intakes will fit, and neither will any standard C or W header. The choices on Clevor intakes is very slim, and headers, especially Cobra units with sidepipes, will need to be custom made, which is VERY expensive. The C block can have all the oiling issues solved for MUCH less than the cost of all the custom parts needed to put a Clevor into a Cobra. In the end both the Clevor and the Cleveland have warts, although the C warts can be solved cheaply and easily. Also, the new C block coming out has none of the oiling issues of the original - they're fixed. By the way, be aware that the oiling "issues" only come into play on engines spending lots of time over 7000 RPM. The W, while an easier build with more common parts, will take considerably more money to match the power output of a C headed engine. It's your $, where and how do you want to spend it?

Go to MME Racing's site. For $6K Mark will build you a 408" stroker Cleveland with 560 HP, and for an extra grand they will put the latest in C aluminum heads on it, which will push you significantly past the 600HP mark, for about $7K. There is no W head on Earth that can flow what a stock state of the art C head can flow - that's the reason NASCAR uses C heads. This power output is available on pump gas, with a flat torque curve, and max power and torque down well below 6800 RPM. The old story of needing to spin a C to ridiculous revs is a 1970's problem that is LONG gone - it's been relegated to the dustbin of mythology. It was once true, and just simply isn't true anymore. Can a Windsor do all that for that price? I don't know for sure, but I do know that I've certainly never seen it for anywhere near that price.

What's a Rousch 550 HP engine going for these days? I believe it's well north of 13K now, isn't it? That's a HELL of a lot of money for what, less power and a warranty? For that price you can build the above C, blow it up and buy another, and probably STILL be ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, the Rousch is a beautiful engine, but DAMN that's a ton of money to spend to get less power.

In the end, there's no wrong answers, only a choice of how much power you want and what you're willing to spend to get it.

[RACER X #99]

The biggest users of Cleveland engines has always been Nascar. They set many speed records but they did not last long. The oiling systwm was not very good for sustained high speeds and many engines blew even with dry sump systems. When they finally started using the Windsor block with the Yates heads (not Cleveland) they became competitive and started to win against the sb Chevys. Now that Dart and Word products produce an even bettter Windsor I see no point (in racing) to use the Cleveland. For a street engine the Cleveland is fine.

[Fred Douglass]

I'm feeling a bit better about my old four-bolter C block. We've put in a few strategic oil-passage restrictor plugs advocated by Kaase and a few other builders. They are indeed for sustained high-speed uses, but Jon Kaase's shop said they are a good thing to have and certainly cause no harm.

I am, nonetheless, interested in the 460 ci potential C block.

Thanks all.

[767Jockey]

Freddie,
Here's the deal. The block we're talking about is being built by a guy named Tod Buttermore. I'll try to get you his contact info. There were two undeniable flaws in the original Cleveland block - thin walls on the cylinders, limiting overbore to about .030 max, and a non main priority oiling system, VERY much like the FE's suffer from (except the Sideolilers, of course). Just like the FE's, the problem with the oiling really isn't a problem at all unless you run sustained high revs.

That being said, the Buttermore block has been cast in aluminum with thick iron sleeves allowing for large bore diameters, and also has been cast with a completely different oiling system, a main priority system. From all initial reports, the block is looking good, very strong, with a proven oiling system just like the new FE aluminum blocks. By the way, I don't know the details, -but Tod's past includes design work on one of the FE aluminum blocks now so prevalent. I don't know which one. However, he has obviously been down this path before.

The Cleveland crank, by the way, is well known in Ford circles as a brutally strong unit. Using one of Tod's blocks, you'll have the following:

-Aluminum 460" or so engine with state of the art oiling system, billet main caps, etc

-Tremendously strong Cleveland type crank

-New Forged H beam rods with ARP bolts

-New forged pistons

-Roller cam

-Small block Cleveland heads that flow more than ANY small block head, more than many big blocks as well

-Choice of many intakes

-Dry intake removal for ease of service - no water or oil in Cleveland intake

-If you choose, well over 650+ STREETABLE pump gas HP, all in a 400 or do pound engine, with a flat torque curve and all available below 6500 RPM

-All that for SIGNIFICANTLY less than a Roush 427 engine that has over 100 HP less

-Lastly, the advantage of lifting your hood and not having the same engine as 1000 other guys at the show. The Cleveland is essentially a state of the art big block in a small block package.
What's not to like?

Again, I'm not picking on the Windsor engine or Roush engines. Just letting guys know that there is an alternative out there, (perhaps a better alternative I believe), than the old venerable Windsor. The old stories out there about the Cleveland "problems" with oiling and high power at very high RPM's only WERE undoubtedly true, but clearly they are true no more. The Roush (or any other high quality built Windsor for that matter) is a FINE engine, and you can't go wrong. I just find the Cleveland to be a very exciting, more powerful and cost effective NEW alternative to the old tried and true. I'm not trying to play the old my engine s better than yours game - that's ridiculous and I have no time for that. I simply find new alternatives in the Cobra world to be exciting, and this in one of them. Whatever engine you or anyone else chooses, good luck and enjoy your Cobra. This is a great hobby!