Am I being ripped off?

[hsv300]

This is the email i got when i questioned the charge:

Hi Greg,
The EFI charge is a Licence to perform an ECU modification. It
is required with each separate modification ( at separate times ).

The charge for the tank was @222.73

[Gav]

Originally Posted by hsv300

This is the email i got when i questioned the charge:

Hi Greg,
The EFI charge is a Licence to perform an ECU modification. It
is required with each separate modification ( at separate times ).

The charge for the tank was @222.73

I don't know about EFI live but this is not the case with HP Tuners software. The serial numbers of the PCM's that the programmer has applied credits to are stored in the MPVI which is a storage device in the peripheral lead. So if the same lead is used, the PCM is recognised by the MPVI and acess is allowed.
When you purchase HP Tuners you also are given 'VCM suite' which is diagnostic software that requires no credits and is read only. It does not allow access to any parameters only diagnostic information like error codes and operational data.

[sideshow]

Hi baz
U got shafted when u got yr engine ecu from the dealer
They would have charged u 400 bucks for a tune that was useless in yr conversion but hey they only know factory holdens. When it comes to conversions its a different ball game
In the end it all ones down to research and people selling the product and know what they sell
That is what pay for most of the time
Unfortunately alot know jack
Your ecu was then sent to tuner who u had it with
Last week he disabled security etc etc
We did not want to waste more money to tune yr ecu
Since it was goin there anyway
Then something happened between the dyno place and shop who built your car
So they got Justin to retune it which we had to charge 200
Because yr ecu was licensed to his software
And not ours and I guess things had to happen fast
So we were only ones there to help the mechanic
Now u took it to dyno place and they had to put it on dyno again and do something to the tune
Now they would not have charged u to license it again
But most probably for dyno time and tune adjustments
Anyway I had disagreement with your mechanic over yr car as we spent way longer than expected because your body harness from Perth was totally wrong and we spent 3
Days fixing it which we should not have and this Is y I won't do anymore work for him and from now on

I think people should do more research and ask more questions about what works and what doesnt

[sideshow]

I forgot to mention the Holden place sold u the wrong engine harness too for your application
So anyone doing a conversion make sure u research it

[boxhead]

I researched ecu tuners and still got shafted.

[sideshow]

That is the risk with mail order tunes

[Baz]

Originally Posted by sideshow

Hi baz
U got shafted when u got yr engine ecu from the dealer
They would have charged u 400 bucks for a tune that was useless in yr conversion but hey they only know factory holdens. When it comes to conversions its a different ball game
In the end it all ones down to research and people selling the product and know what they sell
That is what pay for most of the time
Unfortunately alot know jack
Your ecu was then sent to tuner who u had it with
Last week he disabled security etc etc
We did not want to waste more money to tune yr ecu
Since it was goin there anyway
Then something happened between the dyno place and shop who built your car
So they got Justin to retune it which we had to charge 200
Because yr ecu was licensed to his software
And not ours and I guess things had to happen fast
So we were only ones there to help the mechanic
Now u took it to dyno place and they had to put it on dyno again and do something to the tune
Now they would not have charged u to license it again
But most probably for dyno time and tune adjustments
Anyway I had disagreement with your mechanic over yr car as we spent way longer than expected because your body harness from Perth was totally wrong and we spent 3
Days fixing it which we should not have and this Is y I won't do anymore work for him and from now on

I think people should do more research and ask more questions about what works and what doesnt

Fair enough Jimmy, but why has it taken so long for anyone to mention this to me. This is the first I've heard about any of this. Being the owner, I thought that someone might have said something to me before this instead of being kept in the dark for almost 12 months.


Baz

[sideshow]

We just did what mechanic asked
And not sure if u or your mechanic knew of us
Before you bought your Holden parts
But we would have sold u correct loom and ecu
Or atleast done research to figure best way to go bout it

Basically all we do is conversion harneses
But u or yr mechanic bought products from Holden
Who only know how to sell cars and parts
And not much bout conversions
And also cobra wiring harness guys from Perth
Who make cobra body looms which look good but are bloody useless in a late model conversion job
The looms is perfect for a 1960s carby jobs

Anyway we regularly spoke about thesethings to your mechanic and this is y I won't go there again
I'm just over cobras because of afew ****ty jobs
And other cobra shops taking advantage of us and
Wanting everything for nothing

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by sideshow

That is the risk with mail order tunes

Wasnt mail order, I took it to him, hand delivered and chatted while he put it in.
Explaining everything while he did it, He still decided to do the wrong thing, now he wont answer an email or provide a mailing address.

I am over the whole issue with this supposed good guy, I am not saying he is not capable, but he did the wrong thing, if he did not then he would happily let the court sort it out, but instead he will run and hide.

[Doubledip]

BAZ you havent been ripped off at all... I'm glad that the tuner and yourself have sorted out the difference and on the next tune all will be square.

all the other forum members who have replied to this thread that you have been ripped off do not know the full story as it was not explained properly in your first post - a lot of important factors were left out which Jim only just brushed on.

as many have mentioned it is a licence fee you are paying (which in turn the tuner's are) to licence the ecu to their tuning cable (whether it be HP's / EFILive or others). On top of this the original charge of $200 included the licencing fee (which at the time cost me $150) and the $50 was travelling 100klm's round trip and to turn of security and a few other pieces just so we could test out the gearbox and the active select to see if it was working. You were well aware that you would need to pay another licencing fee with any other tuner used as the licence is on the cable not the ECU. You were quite happy to pay this and i am sure that you will be hard pressed back then and still now to find someone to do the following for that price (only cause we did the engine/trans loom this price was agreeded on)

Now the second tuner charged you X amount as there is also dyno time involved in his charge alond with the credits etc.... so is not a bad price. (most tuners in sydney will charge around the $1000 mark to dyno a LS style engine etc...)

no with the talk of EFI tunes and HP tunes not compatible - this is only if a custom OS is loaded ..if it isnt a custom operating system then either tool can be used to tune the car

As for being aware of all you problems with the original setup etc... it was pointed out to you and also the mechanic that alot of the parts purchased (long before we were even involved) were not the exact parts best suited for your job. VE engine loom to have ecu in the engine bay (which was not wanted) , ECU programmed to suit a VZ 6.0L with 4 speed auto, brand new 6 speed auto transmission with no tune in it....

I flashed in the corvette BASE tune to both the ECU and the TCM for free of charge and is normally a $200 charge .... the tools and software used to do this are very expensive and you recieved the service free of charge. This was needed as you were aware after we found out you wanted to run the factory gear shifter to run active select (which normally needs the factory BCM approx $700 and harness approx $800) this is why we had to go the corvette route.

So i dont feel in any way you were ripped off and if anything i feel a little ripped off for the amount of time spent travelling back and forth to the workshop to fix the little bits and pieces (when we were originally only used to supply fit the engine/trans harness and active select box).

Annoys me that people just jump onto forums and start complaining about a service they recieve and ask for others opinions when they dont provide all the facts to the forum members or before they have taken the problem up with the parties involved. Then only to have half of the members come out and say "he's screwing you" or "your getting ripped"

I noticed GAV and TENROCCA came back with very relevant and non biased responses which is good to see. They gave you the explanations that summed it up well with out going off on the "rippoff angle".

I know forums are a community thing and there is free speech but i hope before any more threads are posted with complaints etc.. that all avenues are explored behind the scenes before anything gets posted .

Also is a good lesson for newer kit car builders (and all other conversion people) to follow ... that is do you research on everything... speak to the people who are actually going to do the work on your car and get their opinions etc.. on things.. dont just go off what others have said done as it may not be the best thing (especially buying parts from a Holden dealer who tells you you need all this when they have never fitted in a conversion - all they want is you hard earned money and once they have it they dont give a F$%K what is missing or wrong)..

well there is my RANT and i know i will more than likely get roasted/flamed for it but it is what i experienced with this Job and also my opinion.. take it or leave it

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

BAZ you havent been ripped off at all... I'm glad that the tuner and yourself have sorted out the difference and on the next tune all will be square.

all the other forum members who have replied to this thread that you have been ripped off do not know the full story as it was not explained properly in your first post - a lot of important factors were left out which Jim only just brushed on.

as many have mentioned it is a licence fee you are paying (which in turn the tuner's are) to licence the ecu to their tuning cable (whether it be HP's / EFILive or others). On top of this the original charge of $200 included the licencing fee (which at the time cost me $150) and the $50 was travelling 100klm's round trip and to turn of security and a few other pieces just so we could test out the gearbox and the active select to see if it was working. You were well aware that you would need to pay another licencing fee with any other tuner used as the licence is on the cable not the ECU. You were quite happy to pay this and i am sure that you will be hard pressed back then and still now to find someone to do the following for that price (only cause we did the engine/trans loom this price was agreeded on)

Now the second tuner charged you X amount as there is also dyno time involved in his charge alond with the credits etc.... so is not a bad price. (most tuners in sydney will charge around the $1000 mark to dyno a LS style engine etc...)

no with the talk of EFI tunes and HP tunes not compatible - this is only if a custom OS is loaded ..if it isnt a custom operating system then either tool can be used to tune the car

As for being aware of all you problems with the original setup etc... it was pointed out to you and also the mechanic that alot of the parts purchased (long before we were even involved) were not the exact parts best suited for your job. VE engine loom to have ecu in the engine bay (which was not wanted) , ECU programmed to suit a VZ 6.0L with 4 speed auto, brand new 6 speed auto transmission with no tune in it....

I flashed in the corvette BASE tune to both the ECU and the TCM for free of charge and is normally a $200 charge .... the tools and software used to do this are very expensive and you recieved the service free of charge. This was needed as you were aware after we found out you wanted to run the factory gear shifter to run active select (which normally needs the factory BCM approx $700 and harness approx $800) this is why we had to go the corvette route.

So i dont feel in any way you were ripped off and if anything i feel a little ripped off for the amount of time spent travelling back and forth to the workshop to fix the little bits and pieces (when we were originally only used to supply fit the engine/trans harness and active select box).

Annoys me that people just jump onto forums and start complaining about a service they recieve and ask for others opinions when they dont provide all the facts to the forum members or before they have taken the problem up with the parties involved. Then only to have half of the members come out and say "he's screwing you" or "your getting ripped"

I noticed GAV and TENROCCA came back with very relevant and non biased responses which is good to see. They gave you the explanations that summed it up well with out going off on the "rippoff angle".

I know forums are a community thing and there is free speech but i hope before any more threads are posted with complaints etc.. that all avenues are explored behind the scenes before anything gets posted .

Also is a good lesson for newer kit car builders (and all other conversion people) to follow ... that is do you research on everything... speak to the people who are actually going to do the work on your car and get their opinions etc.. on things.. dont just go off what others have said done as it may not be the best thing (especially buying parts from a Holden dealer who tells you you need all this when they have never fitted in a conversion - all they want is you hard earned money and once they have it they dont give a F$%K what is missing or wrong)..

well there is my RANT and i know i will more than likely get roasted/flamed for it but it is what i experienced with this Job and also my opinion.. take it or leave it

Not a rant, just explained the whole situation, or the other side of the coin as some would say.

I think Baz either forgot or did not understand how credits are linked to tuning tool, not ecu.

Once it is "cracked" it is only to that Dongle (cable), not all dongles.

[Baz]

If you notice in my initial thread, I made no mention of any particular person or occupation ripping me off. I merely asked the question as it appeared to me that this was another 'Cobra' thing. If you own a Cobra, be prepared to pay for the privalege. I hadn't mentioned the names of any Company. I just wanted to find out the feelings of the Forum members as a general issue because it just didn't seem right to me, especially when someone charges one thing and someone else charges nearly double. There was a discrepancy there and I have found out why that has occurred, but more importantly, what's going to happen in the future. The $360 was for the transmission tune and I still have the engine tune to go. I have no problems with the work carried out by Justin and Jimmy from Sideshow Performance Tuning, but I would have appreciated being bought up to date then and there, rather than to have it come out in a public forum like this.

Doubledip has bought up many issues which I was not aware of until I read his thread. Maybe if we work on communicating these issues to those who are directly involved, problems like this won't occur again.

The mechanic I used was selected because of his reputation in this field. Everything was ordered through him as he was the expert. I had my total trust in him. Conversations that occurred between him and the Performance Tuners were not relayed to me. This is what I was referring to in the previous paragraph.

Baz

[Doubledip]

I understand that no names were mentioned.. even ours and that is good but my main gripe is that it was brought up on a forum before anything was resolved with the tuner (or even call me - you have my number) and ask why is there a difference of nearly double ...

this is where i felt i had to say something... I for one dont look at cobra owners then rub my hands and go "beauty .. someone to rippoff".. and i am sick and tired of cobra owners feeling like they are victimised for owning one - and have to "pay for the priveledge"... you were charged the same as everyone else i have ever charged to make up a loom and fit to their vehicle... along with the free flash of the TCM and ECU by TIS and the the EXTRA cheap VATS off etc...

If you feel you are being taken for a ride with prices etc.. with other things then you need to shop around.. I know paint is expensive when it comes to cobras (and more of that is it is a fiberglass body) and time and effort needs to go into preparing them properly so that you dont come back 6 months later and say .."My paint has sunken"...

Its people (not just cobra owners may i stress - but a lot of other conversion owners) that feel - and i have experienced this oh so many times, that just because a couple of wires need to be joined together it should cost them sweet F%$k all. They gasp at our prices (we are certainley not the cheapest but also not the most expensive) but with the blink of an eye will hand over $4-5000 on a set of wheels/tyres, where half of their money is going to go up in smoke or pay $10,000 and up for a paint job that more than likely will be scratched by some low life in a carpark. but wiring.. gee thats a $50.00 job and anyone can do it.

With that mentality it gives that group of people a bad name to the professionals who offer their services to these individuals. Alot of Mechanics/ Auto Elecs out there are starting to get the attitude that car builders etc.. want something for nothing and are either rushing their jobs to keep customers happy for the low price or pricing themselves up so much at hoping they dont get the job (if they do then good luck and extra money).


... as for all the other problems i know both the mechanic and yourself had been told several times (mechanic more so - but still you were made aware of them at the time - whether you fully understood the situation is not up to me to decide but for you to let us know) that things purchased were not correct (or at least there were far better alternatives out there).

Any way this is not a Direct DIG at you BAZ... more a DIG at the thread title and where it had headed before it was sorted out behind closed doors... if the out come had been bad and you were blantantly treated wrong then i feel that it can be brought up on a medium such as a forum to discuss etc... and let others know of your experiences.

I truley appreciate your kind words on our work with your car and hopefully others will work out there differences before using the Keyboard to bad mouth a profession.

once again Flame away

[sideshow]

we are not aiming this at cobra drivers or builders
just forums in general
alot of people from all sorts of forums like to air their dirty laundry on forums

and we mechanics /builders/painters/electricains sometimes read the forums

now i can tell u a bunch of workshps that will not go near cobras/hsvs/etc etc and also wankers who just hang out on forums thinking thhey know the sheit

we r starting to put the price up or just say sorry mate we r too busy to
people like this
in the end just go talk to soome top specialised workshops about what they think of these types of people
u might get a shock

i recon i make more money by not working on a cobra
as 90% of people who r building them are the worst to deal with
and i garantee i know many more specialised shop owners who agree with me
and each time i talk too friends in the busines si spread the good work about it
people on forums dont realise they give their own forums a bad name
but hey most people on forums are so biased there is no other better car than their own
this happens on hodlen toyota nissan cobra forums all over the world

[Zedn]

Originally Posted by sideshow

we are not aiming this at cobra drivers or builders
just forums in general
alot of people from all sorts of forums like to air their dirty laundry on forums

and we mechanics /builders/painters/electricains sometimes read the forums

now i can tell u a bunch of workshps that will not go near cobras/hsvs/etc etc and also wankers who just hang out on forums thinking thhey know the sheit

we r starting to put the price up or just say sorry mate we r too busy to
people like this
in the end just go talk to soome top specialised workshops about what they think of these types of people
u might get a shock

i recon i make more money by not working on a cobra
as 90% of people who r building them are the worst to deal with
and i garantee i know many more specialised shop owners who agree with me
and each time i talk too friends in the busines si spread the good work about it
people on forums dont realise they give their own forums a bad name
but hey most people on forums are so biased there is no other better car than their own
this happens on hodlen toyota nissan cobra forums all over the world

Wow 90% of us are the worst people to deal with

Sounds like a good time for the forum moderators to step in.

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by Zedn

Wow 90% of us are the worst people to deal with

Sounds like a good time for the forum moderators to step in.

Dont worry Zedn, just Sidey putting into place everything he has learned by reading (or having someone read to him at least) "how to win friends and influence people" .

I never interpreted Baz's initial post as having ago at sideshow performance wiring. I thought he was questioning a change from the dyno guy tuner? He asked whether we though he was overcharged (isnt that the definition of being "ripped off", being overcharged for something, and isnt asking the question on a forum doing "research"?). Baz received back enough information to determine he had been overcharged. He questioned the shop, an accounting "error" was detected, and a refund issued. So yes, he was ripped off.

I hate to say it Sidey, but I think you guys have overreacted to this, and actually made yourselves look a little silly (again). For what it is worth I have told anyone who needs their car wired to contact you guys, but seeing we are all such a pack of arseholes, Im not sure they would be welcome.

BTW - my self wired L76 conversion with mail order tune hasn't missed a beat, and I paid f**k all for it .

[Doubledip]

Originally Posted by Tenrocca

I never interpreted Baz's initial post as having ago at sideshow performance wiring. I thought he was questioning a change from the dyno guy tuner? He asked whether we though he was overcharged).

no one ever stated that BAZ was having a go at Sideshow's.

but why ask a forum this question of overcharging instead of the tuner??? thats my question..

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by Doubledip

no one ever stated that BAZ was having a go at Sideshow's.

but why ask a forum this question of overcharging instead of the tuner??? thats my question..

Hey Justin,

We were given an excellent example of the type of spin a tuner or workshop can put on this stuff with issue HSV300 had with his fuel tank upgrade. He was sold some BS about having to pay a license fee everytime a change is made.

Armed with the knowledge Baz was able to gain by asking the brains trust here (again - research, although perhaps a bit belated), he was able to question the shop with some authority, and got a satisfactory result.

Again I think you have just overreacted (just my opinion ), and Baz has had terrific things to say about your commitment to get his unique setup working.

Cheers

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Tenrocca

Hey Justin,

We were given an excellent example of the type of spin a tuner or workshop can put on this stuff with issue HSV300 had with his fuel tank upgrade. He was sold some BS about having to pay a license fee everytime a change is made.

Armed with the knowledge Baz was able to gain by asking the brains trust here (again - research, although perhaps a bit belated), he was able to question the shop with some authority, and got a satisfactory result.

Again I think you have just overreacted (just my opinion ), and Baz has had terrific things to say about your commitment to get his unique setup working.

Cheers

Youv'e read me in one Andrew. I've established what I was looking for and that issue is resolved. In fact, more issues have been resolved here than I was really looking for.

I think your right Liam. Where are the Moderators? This thread has run its course. Thank you linesmen. Thank you Ball Boys.


Baz

[boxhead]

I dont think the thread needs to be deleted, maybe just closed?

There is info here that others may find helpful.