Clevor motor

[albanycobra]

I'm thinking about building a Clevor (windsor block / cleveland heads) for my Cobra. Does anyone have any Cleveland heads laying around? Also looking for a 351 windsor motor any condition?

[750hp]

By the time you buy old Cleveland heads and give them a birthday, you might just want to go with some higher flowing, lighter alloy heads from the start. CHI are making some really impressive parts for small block Fords:
http://www.chiheads.com.au/cylinder_heads.php

[albanycobra]

Hi Craig

How's it going?

I had look at those heads but want cast iron heads...I want the old skool look.
Inlet manifold will come from Summit(read cheap). A 351W with Clevo heads will make good power and will be a good project aswell.

Come on someone got Clevo heads laying around???

[750hp]

Life's good over here mate. I'm assuming you'll want 2V open chamber. They're the popular heads to get a street-friendly compression ratio with a decent quench area.

Shame, because all the Ebay sales at the moment are closed chamber:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ford-closed-c...#ht_500wt_1156

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Cleveland-clo...#ht_500wt_1156

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-302-351-...ht_1189wt_1141

Depending on which car you're putting it in, you might want to be careful about buying off the shelf headers, as the taller deck height of the block will space the headers out a bit. Might cause issues with starter motor / engine mount / steering clearance...or it might not!

[*Cobber*]

Paint the alloy heads blue, old school in a can.

[albanycobra]

I am going to put it in my G-Force. I need to make new headers anyway.

I would like to stroke a 351 to 408 and fit the clevo cast heads.

[Aussie Mike]

Saw these advertised on another forum I frequent: http://dragster.com.au/modules/newbb...=27282&forum=6

Cheers

[rustyBob]

I think the Cleveland heads would be to much head for a Windsor base motor....

if you want the Cleveland look then build a Cleveland....

there are some very impressive Windsor base heads available....

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

if you want the Cleveland look then build a Cleveland....

Why not build a Clevor. The original Boss 302 was a Clevor i.e Windsor block with Cleveland heads. I think this is a very valid motor design to build.

Cheers

[albanycobra]

I just like the idea of an old style motor in the Cobra...something different to talk about other then the Usual tick an flick windsor build from Summit.

Good news is that you can get everything you need from Summit including heads, inlet manifold, head bolts and so on ,even modified pistons to suit Clevo heads.

I'll build the motor on paper first then see how I go.

How's it going Mike?

[mr bruce]

man-o-man you cats down under got the coolest slang and nicknames. back to the moter- i'm roundin' up parts for a fake Boss 302 myself, phoohy on them mod motors and LS's

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

I think the Cleveland heads would be to much head for a Windsor base motor....

Au, contraire`!

The Clevor is ALIVE.....take a look at the entries in the Popular Hot Rod Engine Master series lately (the last 5 years or so) and see who won...almost all Clevors. The last time I checked, though, a Ford 400M was the winner...and we all thought they were only good for boat anchors!

The Cleveland block has some oiling issues.....although some are creating new blocks with priority oiling.

The Windsor block already has priority oiling.

In a recent thread, a comment was made that it was possible that Chi was no longer producing their 3V heads....not sure if that is right or not, but AFD makes some VERY good heads with both 2V and 4V sized ports. The 2V port size heads are capable of 600 HP out of the box with no bowl job, no porting, just bolt on and go.

http://www.ausfordparts.com/afd2v.html

For a long time the problem was finding the right intake manifold. A company by the name of B&A produced both a single plane (Track Boss) and double pland (Street Boss) version, but they seem to have gone out of business, so those parts are difficult to find. However, Edelbrock has stepped up and makes a Clevor intake now, although I would like to see them offer a single plane product instead of just the double plane:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...rpm-351c.shtml

I am a huge fan of the Clevor.....the canted valve design unshrouds the valve as it opens, improving intake charge and extending the torque range further down in the RPM band....and at the same time the valve sizes offered on the current Cleveland heads can support high RPMs. Sort of win-win, IMHO!

It IS an unusual combination, most people don't want to deal with the issues involved (special pistons, push rods, machine work to the intake face of the head to provide for coolant flow, etc), but IMHO it would make the IDEAL Ford 5.0 based engine for my Cobra.....someday!

Cheers from Dugly

[EDIT--just now realized this post is in the Australian Cobra Club forum.....OOPS. Believe me, we Cleveland/Clevor fans here in the U.S. really envy y'all. We had the Cleveland for 3 years, you had it for SO many more. LUCKY YOU!! Your aftermarket offerings for the Cleveland headed products are SO much more extensive, too....Cheers to Australia! Dugly]

[rustyBob]

Build what you want...i still like the FE engines better...

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

Build what you want...i still like the FE engines better...

Yep, Bob, the FE has a "cool factor" that can't be denied, it's THE original 427 design motor, that's for sure!

You can't argue with the assertion that they are tricky to build, though....

As for power, an FE hardly ever makes the finals in the PHR Engine Masters competitions....not sure why, they are true torque monsters, but perhaps it is because they are SO good at high-RPM and not quite so good at lower RPM usage...the Engine Masters competition averages HP and Torque in a wide usage band.

In the end, IMHO what allows the 335 series Cleveland headed engines to rule in the Engine Masters competition is the canted valve design.....which raises the question, why don't the 385 series 429/460 Ford engines do as well, they have the same canted valve design? Just doesn't happen, though.....but, then, the CID limit changes from year to year for the Engine Masters competition, perhaps the 385 isn't very good at lower displacements?

Cheers from Dugly

[rustyBob]

For me the 429/460 is a bit to big and heavy but they are a good truck motor so you can pull your Cobra around on the trailer...
i know a guy who drag raced Clevelands and was blowing them up on a regular basis and was spending twice the money everybody else was because they where running Windsors.
he had talked about building a windsor with the Cleveland heads but the cost was a little more than he thought it was worth and never built it...
if you want to run it wide open all the time then thats fine BUT i just dont see it being a good street motor...those heads have ports you can drop a golf ball througt...
i think you could build a better street/race motor with Windsor heads and have a motor
that will live longer and run stronger....but what do i know i'm not an engine builder...
just your ordinary average guy..

[YerDugliness]

You've hit on exactly the right points, RB!

Your friend's Clevelands were blowing up on a regular basis because the Cleveland blocks from Ford did not have priority oiling, meaning the oil did not go to the mains from the pump, but was "shunted" there from a gallery that fed the cam. Many Cleveland fans put plugs with orifices into the gallery to force more oil down to the mains, but it was mostly all in vain, the Cleveland mains were doomed to failure from inadequate oiling. The Windsor block, on the other hand, has the priority oiling system, so it is the block to use.

The port size issue is a real issue, too....the heads that were available here in the U.S. were of three types, the 2-V open chamber desigh with small ports and valves, the 4-V closed chamber "Boss 351" heads, and the 4-V open chamber "H.O." heads. Needless to say, the open chamber heads were not performance items, whereas the Boss heads are worth their weight in gold these days IF you are building an engine that will see high RPM's for most of its life.

For a street engine, the 2-V open chambered heads offered better performance than the 4-V open chambered "H.O." equivalent because the huge ports of the 4-V heads had such huge port volume that they couldn't provide adequate intake charge velocity, and the low RPM performance was really QUITE poor compared to even the 2-V open-chambered heads.

You Aussies really do have the best of both worlds for a street engine....the 2-V closed chambered heads. These were NEVER abailable here in the U.S.A. from the factory. Every now and then a container load will make it's way here from Australia--check the offerings at the bottom of the page from the U.S.A. based Australian Ford Parts business I posted above, here it is again:

http://www.ausfordparts.com/afd2v.html

For a street engine, I'd go with the AFD alloy heads in the 2-V size....great port design adequate for 600 horsepower right out of the box, they say. That way you get the great lower RPM performance of the smaller ports on the 2-V heads, excellent flow characteristics at high RPM's, and the added benefit of being able to run a higher compression ratio with alloy vs. iron.

Now, there IS one more variation on the Cleveland I've never seen, but am definitely intrigued by.....in Australia only there was offered a 351-C block based "302 Cleveland", not a 302 block like a Boss 302, but a full size 351-C block in which the engine was destroked, yielding longer rods and a fantastic rod:stroke ratio and using the closed-chamber 2-V Australian iron heads. YEE-HAW!!!!! I bet that is one incredible small displacement engines. Don't think so? Take a look at this, a list of the best engines ever offered in the Ford Mustang, the 302 Cleveland even gets a sidebar mention in section #7, in which the Cleveland is reviewed:

http://www.autotraderclassics.com/ca...ts-65188.xhtml


I notice that the Australian Ford Products business here in the U.S.A. also offers Australian 351-C blocks.....higher nickel content. IIRC (I haven't really studied their page lately, so I could be wrong about this) they also offer the short stroke crank in the 302 Cleveland from Australia....all these would be used parts, obviously, but considering that there must be literally MILLIONS of these old blocks sitting around Australia's salvage yards, there must be a real gold mine for someone interested in importing these parts to the U.S.A.

So, the Clevor will bypass the main bearing oiling deficiencies of the Cleveland block and give the benefits of the great breathing offered by the canted-valve head design (also used on the the GM "big block", 396/402/427/454 family of engines). What's not to like?

The Cleveland motor offered smaller main journals, which gave a slight advantage in horsepower development. Ford now offers what they call a Boss 351 block, which is the Windsor design with the smaller Cleveland size main journals, sort of the best of all worlds:

"Boss 351
The Racing Boss 351 is a crate engine from Ford Racing Performance Parts. The block was based on the 351 cu in (5,752 cc) Ford Windsor engine, but uses Cleveland sized 2.75 in (69.9 mm) main bearing journals. Deck height choices include 9.2 in (233.7 mm) and 9.5 in (241.3 mm). Maximum displacements are 4.25 in (108 mm) stroke and 4.125 in (104.8 mm) bore."

I guess we here in the U.S.A. are stuck with the Windsor design if we want a mid-size pushrod engine (the new "Coyote" 5.0 engine looks GREAT, but it's OHC design). The supply of Cleveland engines is dwindling and now there are those who are using the larger 400M blocks in some of the Engine Master competitions and doing quite well, thank you very much.

Cheers from Dugly

[albanycobra]

Does anyone know of a good clevor engine build thread or web page.

I have the following info

Heads 2V 302 Cleveland , I can get these locally.
Heads need drilling and plugging. I have info on what's required

I need special head gaskets ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7377/)

I need special head bolts, I read that you can use Aussie ford 6cyl crossflow headbolts. Can anyone confirm this?

I need modified pistons ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STL-H557CP20/)

I need a modified inlet manifold (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7129/)

Please add any parts I have forgotten that are out of the norm. Also does anyone know the the drill/ tap / machine required for fitting roller rockers and what type, brand would fit? I would like to turn this thread into a good tech thread that all can ref if interested in this combo.

[mr bruce]

http://www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm

[mr bruce]

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/24632119...-ENGINE-BUILDS

[LoBelly]

Clevor was my first choice until I did the numbers on buying and then reconditioning a set of 4V closed chamber heads - also my engine builder was less than enthusiastic.

I think I will revisit that plan at a future date and I have some images somewhere of a clevor build that I will put up if I can find them

In the mean time this might be interesting as a read - perhaps a little out there for the cobra tho..
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/408-c...rack-2710.html

http://tomsmustangbarn.tripod.com/sbossbuild.htm
(looks similar to Mr Bruces find)

have fun and dont forget to post lots of pics

LoBelly

late edit:

I need a modified inlet manifold (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7129/)

Note: Just in case you hadn't noticed this link is to a manifold for a 289/302 not a 351 per your spec last page - ali adapters are available...