I'd rather be blown

Aussie Mike · #1 (**permalink**) 09-10-2001, 10:42 PM

Hi All,

I was at the Sheparton swap meet on the week end. One of the things that caught my eye was a small supercharger from a 2 litre Toyota. This little blower had an electric clutch on the front of it similar to an AC compressor (images of Mad Max come to mind).

The little motor it was off happily turns 7000 RPM and the price was right and it got me thinking. I could relatively easily adapt 2 of them to feed the LS1 I plan to use. The LS1 spins a bit slower than the Toyota so I could machine up some smaller serpentine pulleys to turn them a bit faster. I wouldn't want huge amounts of boost since I'll be using a stock mofor. With the LS1 in the Cobra there is heaps of hood clearance so an intercooler could sit on top of the motor geting cold air from the hood scoop.

Food for thought.

Cheers

Cobra.au · #2 (**permalink**) 09-11-2001, 04:17 AM

AUSSIE MIKE YOU TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH IVE BEEN THINKING OF DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING FOR THE LAST MONTH OR SO AFTER PRICEING A NEW SETUP FROM VORTEC I RECON YOU COULD MAKE YOUR OWN TWIN SUPERCHARGER SET UP FOR ABOUT $2000 AND A BIT OF TIME. MABEY WE SHOULD GET OUR HEADS TOGETHER AND SORT SOMETHING OUT.

CRAIG W

750hp · #3 (**permalink**) 09-11-2001, 06:09 AM

I'm not so sure....
The blower that Toyota uses would be specifically chosen to suit their engine displacement. If your motor is 3 times the capacity, then I can't see that 2 of those blowers will do the trick. Yella Terra are making a larger capacity screw blower that might be more suitable.
Then again, if you don't mind some fabrication you could likely cut the Vortech price in half. I know of a brand new "Race" version V1 Vortech S-Trim (with the cog-pulley compatible heavy duty bearings) available for sale. I bought the blower into the country with my own V7 YS-Trim Vortech, and my friend only realised later on that

IT WON'T FIT THE ENGINE BAY OF A 911 PORSCHE!!!!

Never mind the fact that he had all the critical dimensions two months before ordering the blower!!!

It cost him a little under $4K for the blower and bypass, but I can find out how much he'd be prepared to sell it for if you're interested.

Bathrone · #4 (**permalink**) 11-26-2002, 08:59 AM

Dont do it Aussie Mike!

If you like I can explain about thermodyanics issues - a 2l supercharger wont move the volume of air and it will be inefficient and raise the air temp alot and the ECU will need modifying and there are many other factors to going forced induction. You have to review the "compressor map" to its suitability to the engine at hand.

And besides Turbines are more efficient anyway

Dont want to bore you and seeing Im going through old posts I wont comment more unless you want me to.

Fred Douglass · #5 (**permalink**) 11-26-2002, 09:09 AM

So would most of the guys up here-----including our ex-president, Be-ill Clinton!

He sorta gave real meaning to the old song: "Devil with the Blue Dress On"!

ac andy · #6 (**permalink**) 11-27-2002, 03:15 AM

Aussie Mike,
There was a blue falcon ute in street machine a couple of years back that had a twin supercharger set up that had come from a jap car. apparently they cost him about $600 bucks each,($300US). I will see if i can find the magazine for you.

Aussie Mike · #7 (**permalink**) 11-27-2002, 04:39 AM

I've been having a bit more of a think about the blower option lately. A manifold for a positive displacemnt type blower wouldn't be to hard to fabricate for the LS1. I could incorperate a water to air intercooler under the blower an have a neat and tidy looking set up that would make respectable numbers.

I've heard that the roots or screw type blowes make better botom end than the centrifugal type (I may be wrong). Plus I like the look of the blower in the valey.

I've been thinking about using and Eaton http://www.magnuson-products.com/mp1...generation.htm or a Whipple http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/sc_available.html http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/2300ax_lg.html

I may just say stuff the blower and fabricate a cross ram set up to free up some naturally aspirated HP. Guys are getting 460 HP out of these motors with out major mods and the stock intake manifold is said to be the weak link to making more HP. The cross ram style intake set up looks horn too. Check out the intake on the new 427 Monaro... Woo Hoo!

http://www.hsv.com.au/vy/showcars/showcar.asp

Plenty of time for me to dream.

Cheers

Bathrone · #8 (**permalink**) 11-27-2002, 06:09 AM

Hi Mike.

I understand if you have your heart set on a supercharger. Personally I prefer the efficiencies of turbines and the greater potential for tuning with a well setup intercooled turbo.

Still superchargers have had alot of development put into them, and there is alot of knowledge and different types of superchargers. There are reliable and well sorted packages for GEN III LS1s / LS6s to be blown. Harrop is working on one package now that should be quite good given Harrops approach to these things.

If you can afford the intercooler, while the intercooler doesnt produce alot more power on its own (apart from the colder air intake benefits upping power) the big gain with the coolers is being able to ramp up the boost and not have the motor detonating. Be careful though, as the intercooler should not loose alot of pressure, and badly matched coolers will actually make the engine worse than having nothing. With the right compressor map Ive seen 22psi used on Optimax fuel with no detonation; and any engine force fed at 22psi is going to move!

Well advised to fit exhaust valves that can operate at higher temperatures - Iconnel sodium filled. Alot of good comes from ceramic coated combustion chambers, valves and pistons. Also forged pistons will take the increased torque of forced induction better than the hyperuetectic cast ones - but in the LS1 there has been alot of problems with cold piston slap so your going to need to be careful with piston to skirt clearances and perhaps try anti friction coating on the piston skirt - this is what the factory are doing now, as well changed skirt to bore clearance and higher tension piston rings. Your oil cooling and water cooling systems should be upgrade to cope with the increased power sent into these systems. With an intercooler and decent boost you will need to change injectors as they will have maxed the duty cycle and this means an ECU tuning. The LS1 computer can now be editied in real time so no worries there anymore.

The book to buy on turbos is Corky Bells "Maximum Boost". There are other books specifically on supercharging as well.

Im not sure what Im going to do. Naturally aspirated, guys are getting top results with GEN IIIs. Its simple too - higher lift cam and little more duration, work the heads, titanium retainers, heavier valve springs, Holley sell a top manifold, bigger injectors and a big throttle body and mass air sensor.........Ive seen a dyno run of a standard short block with just those head mods and inlet mods, and it pulled 285 rear wheel kws! Thats about 370 flywheel kilowatts.

Oh, the water to air intercooler, it is over 14 times more efficient than an air to air intercooler. It can fit into small places too so your concept of a "clean" look in the engine bay suits that.

One thing is for sure, if you budget allows for it going foced induction is the key to super silly pucker factor power!

750hp · #9 (**permalink**) 11-28-2002, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bathrone
Oh, the water to air intercooler, it is over 14 times more efficient than an air to air intercooler.

Hmmm, where'd that calculation come from? If you're talking a totally heated air/air intercooler as measured in a traffic jam compared to an air/water at the start line of a dragstrip with an ice-chilled water reserve, then I can see an improvement.

In the real world (and certainly on a racing circuit), it's hard to beat an air/air setup. No water leaks, no front heat exchanger, no electric water pump to fail, no "finite" cooling medium (water) that will reach a point on a track where it cannot maintain temperatures. I believe they call it steady state? Air, on the other hand, just keeps on bashing away at the front of an intercooler - dragging away the heat all race long.

Bathrone · #10 (**permalink**) 11-28-2002, 05:07 AM

Hi Craig.

That figure is an empirical result from thermodyanic lab testing. It is a fact of physics that water is a far more efficient heat exchange medium than air. Corky Bell talks about it in his turbo book, but also another book of mine "the design and tuning of competition engines" (Smith); as well as non car engineering texts.

Sure, there is more complexity and more parts to a water to air heat exchanger. However if it doesnt break and is engineered for the purpose correctly it will always produce more power than a comparable air to air cooler; and it will be able to be fitted into a smaller package.

750hp · #11 (**permalink**) 11-29-2002, 10:41 PM

I just saw that you'd replied to this topic - sorry!

OK, we'll probably agree that we're both right, and wrong!!!

Water dissipates heat more efficiently than air, and as such is the undisputed winner in drag racing and dyno competitions.....

BUT....

In extended applications (circuit racing), the ambient air will provide a better cooling medium than a fixed amount of water that can't keep up with the increasing temps. The heat exchanger in an air/water application is using air to cool it. As such, you've taken lots of heat from the intake air charge, but the (70%) efficiency of the heat exchanger means that the water retains some temp. Next time around, it retains a little more, then more and so on. At the end of 5 laps of Qld Raceway, I bet the water in the air/water intercooler is pretty hot. At the end of 500 laps at the same track, the air that is cooling the intake charge on an air/air setup is still ambient temp.

Aussie Mike · #12 (**permalink**) 11-29-2002, 10:55 PM

Am I missing something here, Isn't there an electric pump circulating the water through an external radiator to cool it?

The real advantage I see in this set up is that you can keep your intake tracts much shorter. plus the engine bay would look much tidier.

Cheers

750hp · #13 (**permalink**) 11-30-2002, 04:00 AM

Mike,
You're right about the radiator. I've just been calling it a heat exchanger - same thing. You're also right about the shorter intake tracts and neater packaging. However, I still maintain that for my particular application (disregarding aesthetics and concentrating on available power delivery), I would not consider an air/water setup.

Bathrone · #14 (**permalink**) 11-30-2002, 06:31 AM

Hi guys.

It is a proven fact that water is over 14 times more efficient than air at heat exchange.

I do see very much what your saying Craig, for sure mate. And your right.

What your talking about, is the efficiency of the entire system. Compared to a air to air, you dont have unlimited quantities of water to use for it and then you have to extract the heat from the water.

Weather or not it is better in circuit racing where you will be driving for long distances, depends on the efficiency of the entire system.

Interestingly, drag racers with one pass holeshot intercoolers have over 100% efficient water to air intercoolers.

RICK LAKE · #15 (**permalink**) 11-30-2002, 07:29 AM

YOU GUY DOWN UNDER ARE THE LAST FRONTIER. No one would me safe in the U.S. with you guys here. Blowers are a great idea. Go with water injection, it's easyier and does the same job as long as you refill the tank. Carroll supercharging sell a kit that fogs the water to a mist and is adjustable, It's 980.00$ and works as well as any intercooler, air to air or air to water. I have an vortech air to water and tryed this system. Alot easier to install and works great. Those 2 blowers you better check out the cfm's they may be too small for a 5.7 when they were on a 2.0 motor. you will superheat the air and only get 5 psi out of them in overdrive mode with small pulleys. I think you need a better speed shop down under that does not cost double to buy or get parts. Have a good day. What gas are you running?? Rick Lake

rlearp · #16 (**permalink**) 11-30-2002, 10:30 AM

Eaton M90s are readily available (90 ci or 1.5L) from yards. They were OEM on Thunderbird SCs from 89-95 and are OEM on a few GM cars as well, the Grand Prix GTP and a Buick Ultra (Supercharged was an option) and the Buick Rivera (last model).

Compressor maps for these are easy to get and you can get different length "snouts" or drives from Magnueson who rebuilds these things. Check Ebay, typically are a few blowers for around $200-500 or so but I used to get them from yards for less. I worked at rigging up a mount and drive for a 5.0L Cougar I had and it is doable. Key is getting the right length drive shaft so you can mount it where you need it.

Ron

750hp · #17 (**permalink**) 12-01-2002, 06:02 AM

This guy has a serious boost addiction. See his website for more cars www.toohighpsi.com

Bathrone (what does that mean anyway???

) - there are a few turbo guys running methanol AND a large ice cooled air/water setup. they struggled with the tune for a while because the air actually became too cool/dense to run a "typical" tuneup. Everything they thought they knew went out the window when they went way under ambient temps.

Interesting stuff, and I suppose the most important thing is to run some kind of system to cool the charge - water/air, air/air, water injection - anything! The number of Mustangs in the states running non-intercooled setups is scary...

Aussie Mike · #18 (**permalink**) 12-02-2002, 01:45 AM

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!! I don't think that set up will fit under the hood though.

I figure a single blower, the big brother to those Eaton blowers and a Air-Water intercooler in the plenium directly under the blower. I'd make most of the manifold out of folded sheet and machine the mating surfaces from 12mm plate. I figure adding a chiller tank in the water circuit might be the go. That way I can keep my VB stubbies cold at the drags.

Not looking for 800HP (planning to use stock LS1 bottom end) but I figure 550-600HP shouldn't be too hard to make.

Cheers

750hp · #19 (**permalink**) 12-02-2002, 05:14 AM

VB!!! They'd probably even help me with my reaction times...

Mike, have you seen the Roush blower/intercooler packages for the 4.6 fords? Very similar to what you've mentioned.

Bathrone · #20 (**permalink**) 12-02-2002, 05:19 AM

Blowers seem to be pretty pricey.

I mean, take a blower for an LS1, and compare that price to a large garrett turbo.

Or is it Im just looking at fancy colour advertisements from the wrong performance shops in Australia? Have any of guys imported them and cut out the middle man? Or gotten second hand ones with the right compressor map?