How Can some Street Rods get full NSW Rego?

[Rebel1]

Well Wazza, it seems like my two posts have motivated you to turn this whole thread into a personal attack.

You say :"It's clear to me, and it seems most others...
You make statements about what a deplorable effort the State Presidents/clubs put in, and you'll get a bite from me."

Firstly, Where exactly did I attack the State Presidents?. Both of my posts refer to the lack of support from the states with no mention of Presidents or clubs. More of this later.

Furthermore you say: "I HEARD about a PROPOSAL to do SOMETHING...but as I stated...I wasn't approached in 2006 to do anything about this."

Please refer to my gallery in which you will find a scan of a page 6 from Snaketales dated June 2006, Volume 13, issue 4. This whole page is dedicated to the issue about which Baz enquired.

Let me quote from the 4th line, paragraph 2. " ... We must take a National approach. This will also demonstrate to the authorities that this is not a "flash in the pan" issue that will go away if it is put in the too hard basket".

Let me also refer to page 2, paragraph 4, 4th line, of this same magazine edition. ( Not scanned but can be verified)
Bruce Allen, in guiding readers to Page 6, pleads " The thrust of this action going national is too important and critical. It must not fail."

Bruce goes further in the same paragraph: "John's experience could be an invaluable asset to helping out with the other states presentations."

You advised in a previous post "I HEARD about a PROPOSAL to do SOMETHING". Warren, would you kindly advise me, and I guess the "most others" you refer, as what was Queensland's response to this ICV issue?.

This was a call in the National magazine for a National effort so what exactly did us Queenslanders do?

[Zedn]

Originally Posted by sideshow

cobra population will never be as big as the hotrodders
and hod rod owners work everywhere
half are bikies and lawyers and accountants etc etc and they have a very big saying about what goes on and they all back each other up and its not hard for them getting rego and blue slips pity its not the same for icvs

one thing id like to know is what have the engineers been doing over the past few years
regarding engineering a car for first time
i remember years ago if u wanted to do a conversion u would ring an engineer and ask them can i do this conversion
well seams these days they have no idea of half the rules
y have so many retired all of a sudden
also has any other engineer been able to past an icv lately
i know some have retired but it would be good to actually ring other engineers that
are still working full time for rta and also will be working with rta for many years
just do a fake call and say hi sir i plan of getting my cobra finished soon would u like to engineer it just to see what they say
i cant see y engineers cant be like mechanics or auto electricians
u get good ones and bad ones
and also i cant see y some enigneers would get on better with the rta than others
its just like any other business u have your favourite customers and u have the ones where u dont answer the phone if they call u hehehehe

has anyone called or used john at consulmotive lately
i know he is pretty popular engineer for alot of cars these days
would be good to see what he says about an icv and if he would take a job on of engineering an icv
getting afew differnet opinions from afew engineers might be abit helpful for down the track

I spoke to John back in August last year and he said no way will he work with an ICV because the RTA are too hard to deal with on them. I had about a 10 min conversation with him. He seemed like a nice guy with a genuine interest in cars. Same goes for Peter Smith and Peter Gillard.

I rang most of the Sydney based engineers on that list and only 2 said yes, one of which going by a recent letter from the RTA isnt on their christmas card list. That was before the current scheme and it is worse now. Now my engineer has said he cant give any answer as to whether he will sign up to the new scheme. My engineer was part of the trial for this new scheme.

[Zedn]

Originally Posted by Philm

Zedn,
I understand that no cobras have been registered, have any ICVs passed in the last 2 years?

Do people actually understand that cobras can not be registered in NSW at the moment regardless of make or engineer because of what the RTA wants? Everyone has this attitude of they will give an exemption like the crash testing. Well no they wont just give an exemption.

Have the RTA offered any statement or any communication about this?

Phil

I dont know about 2 years, but definately 12 months. The RTA advised the engineers of this fact in a meeting at the beginning of last month.

The compliance issue is the new steering column requirement. This has been introduced since Bazs inspection and requires collapsible steering boss. Cars with airbags are exempt from this requirement so consequently there is very few if any cars in Australia that comply. The RTA have said they will accept a car if the column and steering wheel with all identical angles and components as a complying car are used. Obviously this isnt possible due to the dimensions of a cobra. So crash testing is required.

[Dimis]

Fellas... There is far too much hostility here.
I'm sure you all have valid reasons... But we must bury the hatchet.
If there is any chance of getting things done we are going to have to build a bridge & get over it.

It's time for us to get past petty individual arguements, & unite for the better of our hobby and for the benefit of all.

Back to what's important - Baz, is there anything we/I can do to help your cause?

[Mrs flatchat]

http://autoalliancegroup.com.au/anya...-autonews.html
I think I can remember some 15 years ago when the Cobra club was a national body run by the South Australians --they had concerns about the future of ICVs (which is not just Cobras) and that they were trying to put together a representative force on behalf of Cobras to get some sensible stability towards ADRs for ICVs .
Then the national club disbanded and became independent state clubs --resulting in fragmentation -- of course the Gov,m't love fragmentation as they have no pulling power.

The SVMGA -I believe is stepping up to the plate and probably requires some proactive reps form each state club.

Now, its time to muster every ICV in the country to drive to government house in Cantberra and park themselves on the nice lawn until they succumb to some reasonable and workable ADRs that we can all achieve.

My two bobs worth

[Rob. Smith]

The steering column bit is a poor excuse....the use of an already complied production vehicle steering column will meet the demand. As for the collapsible steering boss...they were available in the 60's....I've got one in my car. It wasn't necessary but it's there.
The RTA is making unachievable rules because they're terrified of litigation and are too lazy to sort out the legal guidelines that will make the process easier and allow the engineers to do their job.

[Wazza]

Rebel1.....

I just sat here and reread this whole thread......a lot has been said , and I'm not sure if all of it has been helpful.

Baz started this thread....and I say more power to him.....hopefully he can find a crack in the wall we seem to be up against.

Mate....The article you refer to was not supported by everyone who read it, perhaps it should have had more support......not sure....but it didn't and that was clear.

Human nature could be a lot to do with it....??

I can't speak for the other States, but I'm guessing that the Queenslanders were probably getting every car registered without any great hassles, and probably were not as passionate about getting off their backsides to become involved in "fixing" things.

I'm not clear on what difference it makes that Bruce Allen called us together to get things done??
Or that you think WE should have all jumped in , because our NATIONAL President told us we had to ??...I thought he was the president of the South Australian Club ?

No disrespect to Bruce...Lovely guy, and always have got on well with him...but his position as editor of the Snaketales mag, doesn't mean that his opinion on what WE should all do will mean much to all concerned.

Most people can make their own minds up.

John was president of the South Australian Cobra Club....again....this may not have meant much to the 300 plus Queensland members, and although I'm sure his intentions are excellent, and he really was trying to get something positive done... if there was a general lack of response by the Cobra Community, it probably means that not all of his ideas on how to achieve a conclusion were supported.

Not being a smart RRs...I'm just saying...it was probably just that people have Lives to live, and a lot of other things in their lives need more attention.
That's human nature.

I'd like to see Baz keep digging, and perhaps he will get some clear and helpful info, that can assist in sorting this mess out.

I think I've said what I wanted to say...and I don't see what can be gained by continuing the conversation.

I spent about 6 hours of my WORK day today...responding to e-mails, arranging a Cobra Parade for the Brisbane Roar for tomorrow, advising all concerned about funeral arrangements for a mate from our club, and writing responses on this Forum.

I haven't got any "petrol" left to have another argument about the subject.

It's all yours .........
Good luck with it all.......

Regards,
Warren.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Mrs flatchat

http://autoalliancegroup.com.au/anya...-autonews.html
I think I can remember some 15 years ago when the Cobra club was a national body run by the South Australians --they had concerns about the future of ICVs (which is not just Cobras) and that they were trying to put together a representative force on behalf of Cobras to get some sensible stability towards ADRs for ICVs .
Then the national club disbanded and became independent state clubs --resulting in fragmentation -- of course the Gov,m't love fragmentation as they have no pulling power.

Gawd, you got a good memory.

And you are correct. The original Cobra club, for want of a better description, was actually incorporated in the Bolwell car club in SA. In 1993 it split from the Bolwell car club and incorporated the National Cobra Car Club.

Even back then the issue of registration was considered a PIA. This is why RMC applied for and was granted a "low Volume" manufacturer certification which allowed it to issue it's own Vin numbers.

Those vin numbers enabled easy registration as long as the car was built strictly to the RMC build manual. (which was not worth the paper it was printed on)

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Wazza

Rebel..... I think I've said what I wanted to say...and I don't see what can be gained by continuing the conversation.

Warren, One does not get off that light when one has called out another member. You wanted to dance ... well I'm not finished dancing yet!.

This is exactly what happened.
1. John did nominate a Queensland Co-ordinator for the lobby group.
2. That coordinator knew that I had the "ear" of some mid/top level bureaucrats at QT and requested if I could make some inquiries in an effort to open some doors.
3. Three QT meetings later that coordinator was invited to present a letter of intention to QT.
4. I understand that letter was received by QT on a Queensland Cobra Club letterhead.
5. The coordinator was furnished a QT contact to ascertain exactly the "mood" of QT for his own satisfaction.
6. Subsequent telephone conversation indicated a positive response from QT except they (QT) suggested they would only consider the issue if all Replica type cars were represented. ie. Not only cobras but clubman types and whatever other "replicas" were to be included in the new classification.

Now.... as to your, and others, suggestions of inclusion of manufacturers , DIPLOMACY, small active groups etc.,

7. A manufacturers meeting was called and held at DRB and attended by myself, Warrick Harrison, Don Pilling, Peter Ransom, and Scott Hampson was invited but unable to attend.

The purpose of this meeting was twofold. First they were the manufacturers and deserved to know in advance of proceedings prior to it being dropped in their laps. Secondly to convey some disturbing fears by QT with regard to future ICV issues and the possibility of exemptions being tightened.

8. I understand the meeting to which you referred was held at Scotties factory which went all pear shaped. I was OS at that time. Why and how it was allowed to go pearshape is unknown to me.

I had fulfilled what was asked of me. That was to open the door at QT ..... The responsibility of keeping the ball rolling fell to the State Coordinator and whoever else he recruited to the cause.

Sadly, as we now know, it all fell to pieces and here we are, some 5 years later and bluddy nothing has happened to ease the pain of registration. If you think Queensland will be exempt of the hassles being experienced in NSW then Warren, you have some surprises coming.

As to Queenslanders not getting behind the issue because they're able to register without too much difficulty is a bluddy poor excuse and indicative of the lack of concern for interstate cobra builders, or indeed the whole cobra movement.

I stand by my original comments that the states are responsible.
I've not stopped dancing yet. More to follow.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Wazza

Rebel...

Too much to say AGAIN....

You have a lot to say about the inaction in 2006 by the States...
"The lack of support from the States was deplorable"

1. I've been the Queensland President since 2004 and have NEVER been approached to take part in any of this.
( There was a disjointed meeting held on one occasion...and everyone seemed to be wanting different things....a mess )

2. The "National President " of WHAT ????

I see the same few people "Bumping their gums" on this issue...with little knowledge of what the manufacturers are doing to try and sort this out.

I know of actions being taken and that have been taken by manufacturers, with a view to sorting this mess out....but it does take time, and they don't all run to you every time they talk to someone.

I'm sure we'll see ANOTHER ten pages from the same few people saying the same stuff as I've seen on MANY previous threads...Insulting and attacking everyone whom they judge to be sitting around doing nothing about it.
And...Let's not forget to throw in a half a dozen comments bagging everyone in a government position ....that always helps with getting things done !

I'd like to be able to help the situation....but frankly the thought of joining forces with some of the people I see puffing their chests out on this forum gives me the absolute stirks.

I really don't feel like getting in to some big argument with anyone...but for for Chrissake....get off ya bloody horse about how the States and the Manufacturers are letting you down......

I've spent thousands of hours of my time trying to do "positive" things to help make being part of the Cobra community something good......

I never see you involved in anything...but as soon as this subject comes up, you are suddenly in the front lines...bagging everyone for doing nothing to help.



And Merv.......

"we should elect future presidents and their committees with this as their agenda, and attract folk who are willing to lead the fight for recognition of this as a replica class."

Step up mate...it's all yours........don't forget the other 30 hours a week that has to be put in with a hundred other club related matters, trying to make everyone happy.....

You're a classic mate !

Ahhhh.. That feels better....

It's off my chest.

Goodnight.

Lotsaluv,
Warren

I'm back dancing ...
Warren, the only person on this thread insulting and attacking others is yourself.

This attack was unwarranted and not conducive to your position as Queensland President.

I was responding to a post by Baz with a truthful rendition of the facts. The fact that you misinterpreted my comments as an attack on yourself as Qld Pres or the Club is of no concern to me except for your diatribe in responding.

You comment you never see me doing anything for the club may have something to do with the fact that I'm no longer a member of the Queensland Cobra Club and have not been for a while. You are aware of this fact yet you feel obliged to criticize my inaction.

Some folks on here know the reasons I distance myself from the Qld Cobra Club but those reasons have absolutely nothing to do with your running of the Club.

Now, you have been Qld. Pres for a long time and I am on record on this and other forums as being complimentary to your efforts. However, you have put your hand up to be the Qld. Pres so don't whinge to us as to the work load. Not my concern fella!.


The music has stopped and so have I.

[400TT]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

8. I understand the meeting to which you referred was held at Scotties factory which went all pear shaped. I was OS at that time. Why and how it was allowed to go pearshape is unknown to me.

I was at the 2nd QLD meeting as it was open to all interested people, not just manufacturers. At that stage I was just a club enthusiast with no agenda. My memory is a bit hazy of the exact details, but in my opinion with other groups present like clubbies etc, there were just too wide ranging issues, the clubmans have different issues to Cobras etc etc and there just wasn't enough common ground. The support and interest just wasn't there either considering the interest groups invited. There was only a handful of people there.

I gave my input and support and I know Don Pilling invested a lot of time and effort into it. So did a lot of others. It's all history now. And I thought this was long before Warren was President(no offence Warren).

As for the suggestion of piggybacking off the Street Rod regulations that John suggested in Snaketales all those years ago, I just can't see that as an approach that would work. ASRF woud fight us and I personally would not want their regulations as the design, construction and safety standards would be significantly poorer than we have now.

But the ASRF approach in being self regulating is a great idea. Set up a National organisation. Get financial members. Everyone that wants to register vehicles under the scheme must pay to support the scheme. This gives us a fighting fund and we would need to employ legal representation, take out insurance etc, so we would need funds. We would also need to make sure that all the state transport departments will accept the regulations without modification. And anyone that modifies a vehicle that no longer complies with the scheme gets treated with accordingly. This is just one approach that can work.

[Wazza]

Rebel1

This is a big waste of time.....and your rantings...(Including a lot of things you DON'T know) are at the least irritating, but also include a load of inaccurate half truths and statements, but it seems to be mostly YOUR understanding of how things are, and how they should be.

This is EXACTLY why these things don't get off the ground.

Not sure why you think I want to "Dance" with you...

It's just that I felt you were being rude to refer to the deplorable action by "The States"....

My guess was that this referred to either myself or the club members...wasn't sure....either way, I thought it needed a reply.

I'm not sure if I've missed the point, but it seems a lot of this angst seems to come from the fact that the "States" didn't join in the proposal/movement at the time...
as I said earlier...
people have their own minds to make up, and if they couldn't see it as something worth supporting, then they probably won't.

Craig:
I gave my input and support and I know Don Pilling invested a lot of time and effort into it. So did a lot of others. It's all history now. And I thought this was long before Warren was President(no offence Warren).

No offence taken mate...I remember that meeting with Don using the letter on QCCC letterhead.....
and it was while I was the Club pres....
But I was told that it turned out to be a waste of a great deal of Don's(and other) time...a shame.


If anybody was wondering why we can't all get together and work as a team to get a positive result....just imagine all this taking place as a meeting of State reps trying to show our united interest in achieving ANY positive result.

That is why I suggest we could make a go of this, using reps from the various states.....BUT...they would need to be able to discuss each others ideas openly, and work together to get a result.

Going crook at the other "States" for not supporting something that the "National President" has decided seems not to be the answer.

Rebel1,
The fact that you've decided years ago not to take part in any Queensland Cobra Club happenings is distressing...
I mean...how good would it be to hear you much more often?

I have no problem with the work load I've taken on...just don't feel like adding a couple of hours more every day with these "arguments"....

Life is too short !

I'd like to agree with you Rebel1.....

But then we'd both be wrong !

Not interested in "Dancing" mate......

If anybody ELSE wants to contact me , I am honestly willing to help in any way I can....
But this P***ing competition on the forum is just that.

Gotta go.....

Good luck Baz and others,

Warren

[Merv and Sharon]

This has been a long and difficult thread. I originally raised the issue of the role of State Presidents, not Rebel 1. Their role is, as in other social, sporting or professional organisations, a large and continually demanding one. However, the issue of establishing a national organisation or a group who are willing to develop the Cobra Club (or a new Group as Craig outlines) into a self-regulating body, possibly around a 'replica' category (Baz), is one that needs to be part of a real agenda, not pushed around this forum from time to time.

The level of personal abuse that has arisen here is not necessary or accurate. I am happy to take what ever comes my way, but in some defence of Rebel 1, I can say that during my build I received countless, emails, posts, PMs and phone calls from him with great technical and other support. I am sure others could relate similar experiences.

I also have a busy job and a full life and there will be no more comment from this quarter for a while, as like others, I hope to see this issue move forward in some constructive way.

[Outwest34au]

Now politics has never been one of my strong points or even a part time hobby, but in the case of Baz and denial of service, is this not simply the NSW RTA operating in a manner that is unfair and inconsistent with the governing rules being in this case ADR's and the NCOP? A for Australian, N for national.

Section 109 [Priority of Commonwealth laws over State laws]
When a law of a State is inconsistent with a law of the Commonwealth, the latter shall prevail, and the former shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be invalid.

I can appreciate the passion (outspoken or silent) all here have for Cobra related matters and I am sure that we all or any would do whatever we could to help Baz out if we knew the answer.


Better get a lawyer son, You better get a real good one

[400TT]

Warren, I just looked at my emails and you have been president a lot longer than I realised. And doing a great job, you can never please everyone, but I know the majority really appreciate your efforts, as you know I do.

On the collapsible steering boss front we use and recommend the Momo collapsible bosses. One of the few collapsible bosses that are still available on the market. They are the metal 3 prong ones with the soft ribbed cover.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Gawd, you got a good memory.

And you are correct. The original Cobra club, for want of a better description, was actually incorporated in the Bolwell car club in SA. In 1993 it split from the Bolwell car club and incorporated the National Cobra Car Club.

Even back then the issue of registration was considered a PIA. This is why RMC applied for and was granted a "low Volume" manufacturer certification which allowed it to issue it's own Vin numbers.

Those vin numbers enabled easy registration as long as the car was built strictly to the RMC build manual. (which was not worth the paper it was printed on)

What have I started here. Keep your powder dry boys. We are all on the same side and we don't need any 'Friendly Fire' injuries to evolve from this thread.

Les, I would be interested to hear more about RMC being classified as a "Low Volume Manufacturer". As you are aware, my car is an RMC and was built in strict accordance of their Build Manual. Can I still get a VIN number from them?


Baz

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Outwest34au

Now politics has never been one of my strong points or even a part time hobby, but in the case of Baz and denial of service, is this not simply the NSW RTA operating in a manner that is unfair and inconsistent with the governing rules being in this case ADR's and the NCOP? A for Australian, N for national.

Outwest34au, keep in mind this issue does not only effect Baz. It effects every ICV builder in NSW at present. Eventually it may well effect builders in all states.

But you also raise a point that needed examination back 5 years ago and requires close scrutiny now.

Ignore standards, ignore various ADR's, ignore the technical arguments for a moment. These issues come at a later point.

Legislation, read laws, are supposed to be consistant. The authorities are obliged to ensure their actions and administration of laws are fair and consistant.

But exactly why does a cobra fit a classification of ICV?. How can a hot rod be classed as a hot rod when in essence it is a home built vehicle just like a cobra. How come a trike can be registered with a chrome and polished VW engine hanging out the back which has no hope of emission compliance.

This was exactly Johns argument. From a bureaucratic point of view, what aspects are so different that the authorities class it as an ICV and how does it differ so much from these other modes of transport to cause that to happen?. It's not a matter of joining the hot rod scheme, it is a question of definition by the authorities.

This primarily is the question. Park a Cobra, a chopped and channel 32 ford rod, and a high powered trike in a car park and have the authorities answer why the cobra is handled differently for registration.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Baz

Les, I would be interested to hear more about RMC being classified as a "Low Volume Manufacturer". As you are aware, my car is an RMC and was built in strict accordance of their Build Manual. Can I still get a VIN number from them? Baz

Baz, that was a long time ago mate and the authorities have not recognised the RMC vin numbers for years.

But to answer your question. Back then, if you purchased an RMC kit you also received a Vin plate, embossed with a vin number, and a tyre placard. The Vin was issued I guess by the WA authorities in blocks and issued out by RMC.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Wazza

Rebel1

This is a big waste of time.....and your rantings...(Including a lot of things you DON'T know) are at the least irritating, but also include a load of inaccurate half truths and statements, but it seems to be mostly YOUR understanding of how things are, and how they should be. Warren

Bluddy hell Warren, Your attitude regarding this subject is at least consistant. You have once again resorted to personal attack.

This subject is NOT a waste a time. We have builders currently experiencing difficulties registering their vehicles.

Fact is fella .. this subject, and a means of at least starting something to address the issue was started a long time ago. What has happened since then is anybodies guess but there remains one thing evident.....

Members are having troubles registering their cobras!!.

[Wazza]

[b]Bluddy hell Warren, Your attitude regarding this subject is at least consistant. You have once again resorted to personal attack.

This subject is NOT a waste a time. We have builders currently experiencing difficulties registering their vehicles.

Fact is fella .. this subject, and a means of at least starting something to address the issue was started a long time ago. What has happened since then is anybodies guess but there remains one thing evident.....

Members are having troubles registering their cobras!!.






Jeeeeeeeeezus.....

I can't help making it personal....

It's just that I find you so irritating .......Fella !.....and so easy to get a rise out of.

The "Waste of Time" I referred to , is replying to your comments.....NOT the subject matter.

Look matey...I'm sure your heart is in the right place...I just would prefer we talk about what can be done NOW...not what you think happened years ago...and how we've let you down.

For about the tenth time....if anyone needs help with doing something positive, rather than trying to score points....I'll help where I can.




Warren, One does not get off that light when one has called out another member. You wanted to dance ... well I'm not finished dancing yet!.


Well o.k. .....But keep ya hands to yourself ...fella.

Time for us all to stop "Dancing" ( Maybe sit down and take a breath ?)......

and PLEASE let's get on to something positive.

Love ya work Rebel1 !

Regards,
Warren.