Modular 5.4 vs Dart block Winsor

[LJ47]

Does anyone rate a modular 5.4 V4 to a Dart Winsor strocked or not .

LJ

[blykins]

Unless it's stroked and has a blower hanging off of it, nowhere close.

I build both engines and it's just a different kind of use and a different kind of power.

[LJ47]

Please explane which is better Windser or Modular?
LJ

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by LJ47

Please explane which is better Windser or Modular?
LJ

If Shelby American was making brand new completed Cobras for sale to the public and they could pick any engine in the Ford Motorsports catalog to use which engine would they choose?
I'll give you a hint. What engine is in the Ford GT

[Rob. Smith]

393 alloy Dart block stroker is a nice little package.

[Jerry Clayton]

We have a few customers that have changed from the 4 valve engines that were built all the way up to include some pretty high boost levels and they went with our Dart blocks with boost----

The 4 valve engines are huge and hard to work on (complicated) and no room under the hood-
The Dart Windsor(small main) with a pro charger and 427 inches is wayyyyyyyyy better

[fordracing65]

Modular moters are the size of Texas, bigger than a big block in every dimension, but blown can make nice numbers, its an emmisions engine.

[madmaxx]

Isn't the modular used in the new gt500 @ 640hp?, seams the way to go

[eschaider]

A blown Modmotor is about the same size as a 427 SOHC and it literally fills the engine compartment with wall to wall motor. Properly done with attention to polshing things like the valve covers and blower driver it is a visually stunning sight when you open the bonnet.

From a period correct point of view it is anathema - it simply isn't. From a power perspective you can hit 650 RWHP with a 4.6L Modmotor that puts north of 500 RWTQ down at 1800 rpm and well past 600 once you cross 2000 rpm. The seat of the pants dyno gives five stars to these engines. The classic rumpity rump idle is missing and will not produce the same audible note at idle the classic pushrod engines do.

When you put one in a roadster like ours, you literally have lightning in a bottle plus it starts in all kinds of weather, gets 25+ mpg on the highway and is an all around pleasant driving experience. When you flex its muscles it can scare you - but then any Cobra north of 500 FWHP is a pretty impressive ride.

A 5.4L version while a tight fit can be done but you are looking at 900+ RWHP once you start to modify it. If you thought the 4.6L version was scary at 650 RWHP the 5.4L version is suicidal and not necessary except for HP bragging rights.


Ed

[blykins]

One saying that I heard that has always made sense with engines....

"A 'big' big man is always better than a 'big' little man..."

The Modular engines are displacement-lacking. I can do about 351 cubes with a stroked and re-sleeved 5.4L block. The longer stroke of the 5.4 helps on torque.

However, you usually have to reach for forced induction if you want some good numbers, or usable power. 600hp is do-able with a naturally aspirated 5.4, but you have to spin it up really high.

[Mrs flatchat]

Roger Higgins (ex DJR) makes the mod. sing......probably see them in the super V8s soon

Ford 5.0 Coyote - 456kW, 610Nm.

[Merv and Sharon]

Is the Coyote smaller than the Modular earlier models?

[LJ47]

Originally Posted by Mrs flatchat

Roger Higgins (ex DJR) makes the mod. sing......probably see them in the super V8s soon

Ford 5.0 Coyote - 456kW, 610Nm.

High reved N/A modular can sound cool. But whats better revs & hp or torque?
Merv about same size I think but alot lighter in LS weight KB just finnished one and it was the lightest car he has done so far and dynoed good numbers for a stock motor .
LJ

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by blykins

One saying that I heard that has always made sense with engines....

"A 'big' big man is always better than a 'big' little man..."

The Modular engines are displacement-lacking. I can do about 351 cubes with a stroked and re-sleeved 5.4L block. The longer stroke of the 5.4 helps on torque.

However, you usually have to reach for forced induction if you want some good numbers, or usable power. 600hp is do-able with a naturally aspirated 5.4, but you have to spin it up really high.

I couldn't agree more Brent. The 4.6L is only 281 inches but at 18 psi in the intake manifold it is over 625 cubic inches of air that is processed ever two turns of the crankshaft. That and the exceptional low lift flow characteristics of four valve heads is why 281 inches can produce almost 600 ft/lbs of torque at less than 2000 rpm. With that kind of torque on tap, essentially off idle, this engine is stunning at any rpm.

As we both know, it is torque that moves the car and registers on our seat of the pants dyno. Hp is primarily related to top end speed attainment.

With respect to forced induction on one of these engines, unless you want to try to simulate a high speed track event in your daily driving experience (not a good idea) the Modmotor will be decidedly disappointing in n/a trim - after all it is only 281 inches. If you do not intend to supercharge the engine I think you will probably be much happier with a different engine choice.

If you decide to supercharge the engine well, things are suddenly very different. You will have just entered a new reality and a found a new edge of the performance envelope for your car - and it's pretty cool.


Ed


p.s. Another thing to consider is the numbers I am speaking of are rear wheel power figures not flywheel figures - again as you already know there is a measurable difference.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

Is the Coyote smaller than the Modular earlier models?

No, same size as a 4.6 or 5.0 dohc, also about the same weight, the coyote heads just flow a little better, and have a few other bells and whistles like vvt on them.

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I couldn't agree more Brent. The 4.6L is only 281 inches but at 18 psi in the intake manifold it is over 625 cubic inches of air that is processed ever two turns of the crankshaft. That and the exceptional low lift flow characteristics of four valve heads is why 281 inches can produce almost 600 ft/lbs of torque at less than 2000 rpm. With that kind of torque on tap, essentially off idle, this engine is stunning at any rpm.

As we both know, it is torque that moves the car and registers on our seat of the pants dyno. Hp is primarily related to top end speed attainment.

With respect to forced induction on one of these engines, unless you want to try to simulate a high speed track event in your daily driving experience (not a good idea) the Modmotor will be decidedly disappointing in n/a trim - after all it is only 281 inches. If you do not intend to supercharge the engine I think you will probably be much happier with a different engine choice.

If you decide to supercharge the engine well, things are suddenly very different. You will have just entered a new reality and a found a new edge of the performance envelope for your car - and it's pretty cool.


Ed


p.s. Another thing to consider is the numbers I am speaking of are rear wheel power figures not flywheel figures - again as you already know there is a measurable difference.

To our American friends -what you maybe don't know is that the Modulars in Oz are ALL 5.4's with either 3 valves or 4. We appear to have a similar situation to what happened when we had Clevelands and you guys were doing all your HP work on the Windsor-comparatively we were years ahead in Cleveo development for a long time and OZ heads are in high demand over there still.
The 4 valve heads heads on our 5.4 have no direct comparison to the 4 valve heads that are common in the US. When Ford Oz decided to use the modular here, they apparently sent some engineers over so they could play in the Ford parts goodies bin and the engine development went off in a slightly different direction. we have 2 different valve lifts used in 3 different HP output engines-a low comp 10:1 approx 350HP+368 lbs Ft torque, then a high comp 11.3:1 approx 390HP + 375 lbs ft TQ then another rated at 424HP & 380 lbs ft TQ. (+/- approx only) and they ALL have a forged bottom end.

Me I'm using the 350HP engine and I'm going to go the the Hi-comp pistons down the track. That being said I love things that rev as I spent a lot of time building Rotarys in Mazda's and NSU's as well as multi valve/multi cam engines as well, so that don't phase me at all.
IMO its hard to beat the sound of a high revving V8 and with the right bits the mod motors rev HARD, and will rev hard all day long-not that you need to. The heads on these motors just flow unbelievable numbers in stock form and there is now a good range of cams to suit, with Herrod doing some here that sound so old school its great. If I find that I want more grunt, water injection and a blower will do me just fine.
Yes the engine is one BIG mother and about the same weight as a Big Block, but you can now get an alloy blocks for pretty reasonable $'s-still dearer that a Dart etc but hey....that's the way it is
Rog

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Rog246

To our American friends -what you maybe don't know is that the Modulars in Oz are ALL 5.4's with either 3 valves or 4. We appear to have a similar situation to what happened when we had Clevelands and you guys were doing all your HP work on the Windsor-comparatively we were years ahead in Cleveo development for a long time and OZ heads are in high demand over there still.
The 4 valve heads heads on our 5.4 have no direct comparison to the 4 valve heads that are common in the US. When Ford Oz decided to use the modular here, they apparently sent some engineers over so they could play in the Ford parts goodies bin and the engine development went off in a slightly different direction. we have 2 different valve lifts used in 3 different HP output engines-a low comp 10:1 approx 350HP+368 lbs Ft torque, then a high comp 11.3:1 approx 390HP + 375 lbs ft TQ then another rated at 424HP & 380 lbs ft TQ. (+/- approx only) and they ALL have a forged bottom end.

Me I'm using the 350HP engine and I'm going to go the the Hi-comp pistons down the track. That being said I love things that rev as I spent a lot of time building Rotarys in Mazda's and NSU's as well as multi valve/multi cam engines as well, so that don't phase me at all.
IMO its hard to beat the sound of a high revving V8 and with the right bits the mod motors rev HARD, and will rev hard all day long-not that you need to. The heads on these motors just flow unbelievable numbers in stock form and there is now a good range of cams to suit, with Herrod doing some here that sound so old school its great. If I find that I want more grunt, water injection and a blower will do me just fine.
Yes the engine is one BIG mother and about the same weight as a Big Block, but you can now get an alloy blocks for pretty reasonable $'s-still dearer that a Dart etc but hey....that's the way it is
Rog

The point being, and I have said this a thousand times, without a blower, turbo or being sprayed ,they are torqueless wonders, that's not the case with an FE or stroked Windsor, in most cases these 2 engines produce too much torque. The mod motor does rev, which is great on the TRACK, but for the street, if you want those big numbers, where tq is needed, forced induction is a must.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Rog246

To our American friends -what you maybe don't know is that the Modulars in Oz are ALL 5.4's with either 3 valves or 4. We appear to have a similar situation to what happened when we had Clevelands and you guys were doing all your HP work on the Windsor-comparatively we were years ahead in Cleveo development for a long time and OZ heads are in high demand over there still.
The 4 valve heads heads on our 5.4 have no direct comparison to the 4 valve heads that are common in the US. When Ford Oz decided to use the modular here, they apparently sent some engineers over so they could play in the Ford parts goodies bin and the engine development went off in a slightly different direction. we have 2 different valve lifts used in 3 different HP output engines-a low comp 10:1 approx 350HP+368 lbs Ft torque, then a high comp 11.3:1 approx 390HP + 375 lbs ft TQ then another rated at 424HP & 380 lbs ft TQ. (+/- approx only) and they ALL have a forged bottom end.

Me I'm using the 350HP engine and I'm going to go the the Hi-comp pistons down the track. That being said I love things that rev as I spent a lot of time building Rotarys in Mazda's and NSU's as well as multi valve/multi cam engines as well, so that don't phase me at all.
IMO its hard to beat the sound of a high revving V8 and with the right bits the mod motors rev HARD, and will rev hard all day long-not that you need to. The heads on these motors just flow unbelievable numbers in stock form and there is now a good range of cams to suit, with Herrod doing some here that sound so old school its great. If I find that I want more grunt, water injection and a blower will do me just fine.
Yes the engine is one BIG mother and about the same weight as a Big Block, but you can now get an alloy blocks for pretty reasonable $'s-still dearer that a Dart etc but hey....that's the way it is
Rog

Oh, we have the same heads, we just don't have all the cool intakes that you guys have....

But there's one thing that you mentioned in your post that makes a big difference....the word "track".

A track car or drag car needs different things than a street car. Running to pick up a pizza at 1600 rpm, then sitting in traffic in 98° weather, doesn't require an engine that pulls to 7500, nor is an engine designed for 7500 "right" for that kind of driving. You need more emphasis on low rpm engine characteristics and torque.

Please don't get me wrong in all of this. I like the Modular engines. The components are very tough. I've owned Mod motors, I've had them in Mustangs, I've had buddies with blown 4.6's, etc. I've even got Mod motor parts on the shelf in the shop. But there's something about spending thousands of dollars on an engine, then having to spend another $3-5k on a supercharger. In the Coyote's case, you have to spend thousands on the engine, thousands on the supercharger, and then thousands on the computer and wiring harnesses.

If you want 900rwhp, then I can do that with a big block....(naturally aspirated)

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by blykins

Oh, we have the same heads, we just don't have all the cool intakes that you guys have....

But there's one thing that you mentioned in your post that makes a big difference....the word "track".

A track car or drag car needs different things than a street car. Running to pick up a pizza at 1600 rpm, then sitting in traffic in 98° weather, doesn't require an engine that pulls to 7500, nor is an engine designed for 7500 "right" for that kind of driving. You need more emphasis on low rpm engine characteristics and torque.

Truer words could not be spoken. This is a big deal.

Originally Posted by blykins

Please don't get me wrong in all of this. I like the Modular engines. The components are very tough. I've owned Modmotors, I've had them in Mustangs, I've had buddies with blown 4.6's, etc. I've even got Mod motor parts on the shelf in the shop. But there's something about spending thousands of dollars on an engine, then having to spend another $3-5k on a supercharger. In the Coyote's case, you have to spend thousands on the engine, thousands on the supercharger, and then thousands on the computer and wiring harnesses.

Sadly, you're right Brent. they are not cheap especially when you finish up with the various reliability / longevity modifications. You still have a few performance mods and while parts for these engines are quite good they are not inexpensive.

Originally Posted by blykins

If you want 900rwhp, then I can do that with a big block....(naturally aspirated)

This one might be a bit of a stretch with a big block if you want to make it a street friendly car like we were talking about, although this is where the blown modmotors excel. In the real world of Cobra roadsters 900 RWHP in a street car might be a little over the top, except for bragging rights.. Interestingly the blown mod motors can actually do that and idle at 650 - 750 rpm with near max torque just off idle. They making driving around town and in traffic or on the highway at 1300 rpm in fifth gear a reality - without bucking and farting.

In the end, as it has always been, it is ultimately the builders preferance that wins out - or at least ought to. From an authentic period correct point of view I just love the FE. From a handling and all around bang for the buck standpoint the small block is very hard to beat. From a pure love of the motor and the visual WOW when you open the hood there are few things like a SOHC. I just love Full Throttle Al's engine compartment. At the end of the line if you are willing to spend the money and take the time you can have it all except the period correct-ness and cost with the blown modmotor. The caveat(s) - you have to be willing to do the work, surrender the period correctness and last but not least, pay the price - literally.

Shucks it's a country mile closer than an LS6 or 7

Ed

[blykins]

It may have been a small stretch, but not much. That amount of power isn't feasible with a naturally aspirated "street" FE, but the 385 series engines can get there without much fuss. My Boss 9 engines make 750-800 hp very easily and if you head towards 600 cubes with a hydraulic roller or mild solid roller, 900-1000 hp is certainly doable in a "street" setting. It may push the envelope a little, but most of the cobra engines floating around push it as well.