End of the line for Holden

[Rog246]

When you lose you do not win.
Well that's a bit of an oxymoron ain't it !!
That's right up there with military intelligence

[sideshow]

maybe gm in the usa should start making guns
with the stupid gun laws and all the shootings they have over there
gm would make a fortune selling guns

[Towmaster]

Well there is a military connection with Holden/GM...

They do have a Commodore in their range...

Speaking of guns I wonder what 'calibre' they would be?

Ha

[Rog246]

Now that is a debatable point

[Towmaster]

And speaking of politics there is a Senator... Both at Holden and one time GM minion Opel.....
And of course how could we forget the Opel Kadett... Or Gemini as it was known here....

My God this is a larger conspiracy than I first thought!!!

[tomcat racing]

Originally Posted by Jethrow

Geez tomcat, ranting loud and long about capitalism does not make you right, it just makes you seem like an ignorant commie. And you need a new category for your tag, the 1% of people who think they know, but actually DON'T.

Lets make one thing clear. The bailouts, and large sums of money being handed over to companies like GM is NOT capitalism. The response (to stop the handouts) recently offered by the Libs is. In a free market capitalist system, businesses need to sink or swim on their own, with the market deciding (by buying or not buying its goods) if it has merit.

The underlying statist intervention, by usually lefty governments, think ALP, think Obama, where they seek to distort the market mechanisms by providing subsidies is not free market thinking.

Unfortunately where we think of the USA or even Australia as being a capitalist system, the fact is it isn't. It tries, but it is constantly distorted by governments, whose centrist ideals are at complete odds with the free market system.

And the car industry is an excellent example of this. In Australia, we have heard about how the car industry has been given grants for years and years. But think about that. Where does that fit in with capitalism? It might seem a good idea, and perhaps as a one off quick fix it could have value. But to do it at all, it just distorts the economics.

It actually changes the dynamics of the car industry to become an industry that now relies on the subsidies, with the businesses chasing the easy money. But why wouldn't they? One thing that is a feature of the free market system is that it can react quickly to change. And here the change is free money, so it gets exploited. And this is even better, for in this case, some of the exploitation was done by the union, thinking, hey, if there is free money, we will have some too.

So what started out as the government thinking it was a good idea, turned out it actually wasn't. And I agree that governments of all sides can do this. Governments need to understand that the best way to manage a capital system is to not try and control it, to not intervene in it.

Sure they can tax it, skim some off the top, etc etc, but they would do better to not get in the way. Lets face it, and I said this before. Governments do not create wealth. Never have, never will. Not in their DNA. It is enterprising people, people with some drive and go, cobra people, who create wealth, and there is no better way to do it than in a capitalist society.

Hell, history has shown this to be true over and over and over. Nothing else comes close. And the fact is, what we have here, despite the government meddling still does a pretty good job.

Good enough I am sure tomcat, to allow your business to do well for you and your employees.

If you look under virtually all financial crisis's of the sort we are hearing a bit too frequently about, of the sort we blame capitalism for, dig deeper, and you will see where government intervention has forced some market distortion somewhere along the way. And the problem with this is, is it usually leads to a market failure.

PS

I am also not a member of any political party. I have owned my own business and worked for others. I am pro a free market economy. I try not to let belief distort facts.

I was waiting for this response, You are just so predictable.

You are so bound up in your total free market economy, you dont even get the gist of the discussion, let alone the repercussions to society when it crashes.

You are the fool that posted up your views in your expert opinion, blaming the unions for holden closing. I just couldnt let such ignorant comments stand unopposed.

As for ranting about capitalism, people like you with your limited intellect on the matter, always resort to the view that anybody who has an opposing opinion from yours must be anti capitalist, thats how dim you are.

And for proof,
The last resort of a feeble mind in any political discussion is to label your opponent a COMMIE, as if, thats it, i win.

I dont normally resort to comments like this on club cobra,
but you are a narrow minded braindead nutjob.
You sure youre not a closet member of the Tea Party.

Oh and that category you spoke about, its full up with people with views like yours.

So i rest my case your honour
This fool has incriminated himself enough,

End of story.

[Legless]

Yeah and apparently they had a HR team years before they built the HQ.

[Baz]

How about Tomcat and Jethrow continue their debate down behind the wood shed?

[Jethrow]

Hahaha yes. Both those guys are crazy!

[Rebel1]

HERE IS THE FULL ACCOUNT WHY HOLDEN WENT DOWN THE GURGLER.
and Labor blames Abbott !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For some “balance” please read the following in The Australian yesterday by Grace Collier, an ex-unionist and Industrial Relations expert. It staggers me that no-one, throughout this, has mentioned the elephant in the room.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

If that won’t open, here is the text:

ONLY $150 million a year will save Holden? Rubbish. The Holden Enterprise Agreement is the document that has utterly sunk Holden's prospects. It defies belief that someone in the company isn't being held to account for it.

Holden's management masks a union culture beyond most people's comprehension. Employment costs spiralled way beyond community standards long ago. Neither "pay freezes" nor more money will save Holden, but getting the Fair Work Commission to dissolve the agreement and put all workers on the award wage might be a start.

In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years. Right now, base wage rates for process workers in the Holden enterprise agreement are in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range and in recent times, "hardship payments" of $3750 were given to each worker.

The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range. This means that before we add any of the shift penalties, loadings, 26 allowances and the added cost of productivity restrictions, Holden begins each working day paying its workforce almost double what it should. After you add in the other employment costs, I estimate Holden's workforce costs it somewhere close to triple the amount it should.

Many people who work at Holden don't actually work for Holden; they work for the union. Occupational health and safety people are given 10 days' paid time off a year to be trained by the union. Most companies do not allow unions to train their OH&S people because the knowledge is used to control the workplace to the benefit of the union.

Union delegates are also allowed up to 10 paid days a year for union training in how to be effective union delegates and two of these delegates are entitled to an extra Holden sponsorship of one paid month off to "further their industrial and/or leadership development".

Holden's rules on hiring casuals are shocking and unheard of in today's market. The agreement forbids Holden from hiring casuals except when a "short-term increase in workload, or other unusual circumstances occurs". If this situation arises Holden has to "consult and reach agreement" with the union. Further, "Engagement of the agreed number of casual personnel will be for the agreed specified tasks and the agreed specified periods." If any of this changes, Holden must get union agreement again. After three months of continuous full-time work a casual must be made permanent. It is impossible to run a business like this.

An ex-employee from Adelaide, on condition of anonymity, consented to an interview yesterday. He described the workforce as "over-managed", with one team leader for every six workers on the production line, when one for every 25 workers would suffice.

He said "some of us workers felt it wasn't necessary to get paid what we were getting paid to do the jobs we were doing", adding that their work is probably worth about "20 bucks an hour". A few years back, mates took redundancy packages in the order of "$280k plus". Workers are "like sheep" that blindly follow the union leadership. At induction, new workers are ushered into one-on-one meetings with the union rep who heavies them into joining. "It is made clear that if you don't join the union you will be sacked," he said. Union representatives "don't actually do any work for Holden", but rather make themselves full-time enforcers of union control.

He says workers are drug tested before hiring, but "only have to stay off it for a few weeks, get in the door and then you'll be right". Workers caught taking drugs or being drug-affected at work are allegedly put on a fully paid rehabilitation program, with special paid time off of about four weeks duration, before being let back into the workforce.

Australian workplaces have a zero tolerance for drug use, with instant dismissal the remedy, but at Holden "the union won't let the company sack" any workers caught dealing, taking or being on drugs. "If they did a random drug test tomorrow they'd probably have to sack 40 per cent of the workforce," he adds.

If the Holden scenario were playing out in a privately owned business, proper cost-cutting strategies would be used. If you have the will and can hire the skill, there are many ways to cut labour costs. The workers can be given a couple of years notice of significant wage drops and can receive lump sum payouts of entitlements to help bring down family debt.

Of course, these strategies are only ever used by business people who have no one else to bail them out. It seems Holden would rather leave the country than dissolve its enterprise agreement. The union thinks members are better off jobless than on award wages. Holden's fate seems sealed.

If Holden does leave, workers will receive the most generous redundancy benefits around. Holden says leaving will cost $600m. Most of this will go to staff payouts. The fellow interviewed agrees with my calculation: the average production-line worker will walk away with a redundancy package of between $300k-500k.

[Rebel1]

A bit more on the subject:
The 2017 Holden Commodore will be made in China | News.com.au

[darkside]

Originally Posted by damage

I'd love a tax break in my business, sure would make a change from the countless number of audits in the last 20 years

u already have a big tax dodger working for u ....warrens prolly havin a sleep down the back of yur workshop somewhere,its school holidays get his kids to go to shopping malls with yur company name on their shirts ,shout them a milkshake(tax deductable)....doc

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by Baz

How about Tomcat and Jethrow continue their debate down behind the wood shed?

Okay, so who's Dad is going to join them to sort out the black eyes

[sideshow]

lets hope Hyundai and kia get their v8 supercars ready in next few years
once there is no ford or holden

now we all know why they let the nissans and mercs back to race because they knew ford and holden were goooonnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by sideshow

now we all know why they let the nissans and mercs back to race because they knew ford and holden were goooonnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeee

No that's not the real reason-someone in V8S/c admin has always wanted to be able to say when someone crashes a Merc " well you know That's the way the Mercedes Bends !"

[sideshow]

hehehe
or they want another driver to get up on the podium and yell out

your all a pack of assholes

[bret a ewing]

Originally Posted by sideshow

maybe gm in the usa should start making guns
with the stupid gun laws and all the shootings they have over there
gm would make a fortune selling guns

GM did make guns in WWII, I have a "General Motors" carbine made in 1943.

[sideshow]

cool it's prob worth more than a new ve commodore

[bret a ewing]

Hehehe, it's pretty beat-up, but it still shoots. (like it's owner)

[sideshow]

sounds like my old fella after I had the chop

its been a good week this week
fixed 2 cobras so far with niggly problems