EPA Busted

[Rebel1]

Pete, even though you're an import, we'll even let you have a say. Isn't Aussieland wonderful? .

Seriously though, Pete has pointed out an oft forgotten aspect of perormance car ownership. Insurance..be it CTP or accident, the insurance companies are always searching for an out of the policy.

If however, The standard is written to allow the sorts of modifications we all want, then thats the standard thats acceptable to the insurance companies. Those Mods are documented and the Insurance companies have no way out.

And Bernie is right about the SEMA thing. But keep in mind that the SA rep Bernie chatted to has already given us the solution to our problem. Write a standard and have it approved.

That's simply what has to happen. Until then, it's all like pi$$in against the wind.

[rexee]

Hello People

I am astounded at the responses here, a great inspiration for achieving an end.

Unfortunately there is a fact – I must comply with the rules laid out in the ADR’s in relation to my Cobra if I wish to drive on Australian roads whether I like or not!

Purchasing a car with an RWC\Safety check and an engineers report, completed by organizations authorized to carry out such work by state government authorities. Added to this, conversations prior to purchase with the above mentioned engineer confirming compliance is, on this occasion, completely flawed. Beware Buyer!!
Be wary of transferring vehicles between states and don’t trust anyone selling cars. I’m an old guy enjoying a Sunday drive why pick on me.

This is all very well; however, it doesn’t fix the problem and maybe I just should have known better.

The fix in the short term is simple – comply.

90Db- I can get there somehow. Try and find something about side pipes, noise and compliance on the net. Like me, you will probably find very little, in particular, how to manufacture the things. Regardless, I know it can be done. I’ll post it when I reach 90Db.

Emissions- Go Gas! Gasresearch have a twin throttle body setup. (http://www.gasresearch.com.au) that works and looks good. I have some doubts as to whether it will fit on a Cobra\460 but there is a gasresearch Cobra kit for small blocks. I have a method of making these throttle bodies fit the 460 if any wants to know.
Impco have a throttle body that replaces a 4 barrel, bolts straight on, looks like a carbie if you have bad eyes! I have some terrible thoughts of a 2*4 barrel manifold with 2 impco throttle bodies with a cobra 2*4 type air cleaner.
The EPA has no problem with the gas conversions and has assured me that this will resolve the emissions issues they have with this car. There should be little loss of power apart from the possible choking of exhaust which I reckon I can fix also.

Whilst separate regulations for ICV’s has some merit I wont be surprised if it comes at a cost, restricted operations, K’s per year etc. Alternatives have to be considered. As for advanced driving I don’t think that will help me. I drive like Miss Daisy!

A consideration is to independently check the Db output of a new HSV’s, WRX’s, trucks (at 100Db I think), Harleys etc. There is a lot of things that make noise maybe the evidence of higher outputs from new cars presented to the EPA and VicRoads might get levels raised under certain circumstances. What I’m trying to say is, my wife’s car is a standard 1998 Ford Explorer, at 3000 RPM it’s 88Db, let’s say 85Db when new, a HSV is a damn sight louder than that. I’d settle for 96Db. Are the major manufactures getting away with it? Get HSV excited and see what happens. Just a thought.

Should we contact the Australian Grand Prix Corporation? Our cars and cars like ours get people excited, that’s how they sell tickets. Now I know this is holy ground but getting the AGPC on side has got to be a positive. The Victorian Car Clubs support the AGPC with special vehicles, events and some festivities on the day. An open letter to Victorian car clubs raising some doubts as to the support for 2006 AustGrandPrix by car clubs may get some people excited! The Vic Government loves the GP. A lot of other big Victorian festivals are also supported by our clubs. Maybe the AGP is too holy, just throwing out an idea!

Aftermarket auto industry is worth many millions in this country. Why don’t retailers start getting fines from the EPA for selling parts for street use that don’t meet relevant ADR’s. Do we have to wait until it starts to get them excited to?


The feeling of criminality associated with being surrounded by a large number of police and EPA officers the numerous photos of my wife (sitting in the car when EPA officers took the photos) and car now on record at the EPA for any future government investigations is not an experience I would wish on anyone. Having left the test site, after the suggestion that the engine has to be replaced, and the implication that the EPA was doing me a favour letting me drive home caused an enormous amount of stress. No doubt anybody driving a car not complying will experience this for themselves eventually.

Certainly, after the event, the EPA has been as helpful as their code allows, however some correspondence with the authorities should be made to ensure there is an understanding by the police and EPA that hoons, Cobra drivers and car club enthusiasts are worlds apart and should be treated as such.

I am now getting on with the job of complying with a few good mates with lots of good will. This has been a huge learning curve for a silly old bloke who does drive like Miss Daisy but does it in a really good looking car that I have waited years for.
Regardless of our initial reluctance to an enormous imposition I am keen to get this car back on the road and would advise others to bite the bullet and comply. The pursuit of overcoming a problem is what makes Cobra owners unique and I find it difficult to believe that government agencies will ever be in a position to understand this. They have a job to do we have a lifestyle to pursue. We need to comply. We need to explore all avenues, until then comply.

Dave

[Rebel1]

Rexee .... Your words.

" Purchasing a car with an RWC\Safety check and an engineers report, completed by organizations authorized to carry out such work by state government authorities. Added to this, conversations prior to purchase with the above mentioned engineer confirming compliance is, on this occasion, completely flawed. Beware Buyer!! "

If this engineer confirmed compliance, why are you worried. Get him to do the work.

The following site may interest you with regards to throttle bodies, I'm not keen on their ECU but their throttle bodies are quite good.

http://www.speed-technology.com/efi_throttle.html

How you go about the emission issue is a personal one. Some folks are running gas and are very happy, and you sure can get it to perform well if thats what you want.

Having said all that...We all run the gauntlet regarding compliance. There are many cobras running around whose owners know quite well that if they get caught they have no hope of passing. Dare I say, thats part of the fun.

If you want to comply and not worry, put a healthy 5LTR late model injected windsor in the thing and go enjoy the roads.

You want it to perform better, put a blower on the windsor and it'll blow the doors off most of the exotics costing 5 times more than the cobra.

Thats what choice is all about.

And...as to your comments about being an old guy..... I'm as old as dirt and you cant get older than that. The fellas on here already know that I get a mention on the sides of the pyramids.

Cleopatra and I had a thing going long time ago....she had a thing about snakes too.

[rexee]

Sorry Les

No offence meant. I know a couple of old guys and I kinda like them.
Ya know that old pal of yours Cleo well let me tell you about Eve she had a snake too. I know I was there!!!

Thats BS I don't think I'm that old. Am I?

Dave

[lovehamr]

Les, your post makes me feel a little better about the land down under and if I do get over there I'm going to look you up and let you try to "poison" me. LOL. As for the swashbuckling thing, we had to kick the crown out before we could get on with the swashbuckling! In your post you talk about getting the cobra community together like the hot rod community. Why not combine to two? In the US, the problems that the two groups face (as far as regulation goes) are quite similar if not exactly the same. That's why SEMA and groups of that nature exist to give our segment of the population a voice in our government and a combined direction for our rules. Now while you're at it you may want to consider adding the late model modifiers as well. Why? Because the problems they face, enforcement wise, will again be very similar to your own. While I'm at it, I have to ask again; what is a "hoon"?

rexee, regardless of your status as an "old guy", if you choose to drive what you do, your problems are the same as the hot rodders, the other cobra guys and even some of the "hoons". To sit back and try to separate yourself based on your age and the fact that you believe your car to be cooler that the WRX is a cop out at best. This statement; "Unfortunately there is a fact – I must comply with the rules laid out in the ADR’s in relation to my Cobra if I wish to drive on Australian roads whether I like or not!" shows a resignation that one doesn't find often here in the states, at least not with car guys. And, yes I know I don't live there and my only exposure to your problems is through this board. However, a basic tenant of a democratic society is the ability to change the rules if a large enough segment of the population deems that desirable. And really that is my only point. Stand up and have a voice. If that means banding together with all of the other car guys, then do it. After all, are you not all facing the same regulations?

Les, your last post summed up my thoughts as well; "That’s what choice is all about."

Steve

[Rebel1]

Originally posted by rexee


Ya know that old pal of yours Cleo well let me tell you about Eve she had a snake too. I know I was there!!!

Ya beat me Dave....but

Twas Cleo and I who were responsible for that famous one liner...

"Girl who sleeps in egyptian tomb soon becomes a mummy."

lovehamr... You just make sure ya look us up when you come over. We promise not to poison ya....Mind you, after having swollowed some of the stuff we got here you may well wish you were dead.

I've got a special I like to feed to tourists. I keep a supply on hand just in case of power blackouts during storm season...It''s good for burning in kero lamps.

Cheers all

[lovehamr]

Is anybody gonna tell me what the H*** a "HOON" is?!

Steve

[PCC]

Australian slang for one with no brain, heavy right foot and no respect for anyone when he uses that right foot.

A nocturnal animal often seen late at night in shopping car parks or dimly lit streets burning rubber with booming noises coming from his rear.

Life span usually up to the age of 20!

Oh - drives a pocket rocket!!!

[boxhead]

Hoon = Is a driver (normally young) who drives in a very irratic maner.
Normally has other "Hoons" with him.
A Hoon will (and I have seen this) drive a car with the loudest blow off valve known to man and manage to make it "pop" 2 to 3 times when driveing from a McDonalds drive through order microphone to the pick up window.

And as PCC says it has a fairly short life span, this is the reason for the crack down.

[rexee]

Les
"Girl who sleeps in Egyptian tomb soon becomes a mummy."

You win! Although on the crematorium side of fifty experience counts! Your experience overwhelms me!

“Get him to do the work”.

Can’t comment, currently in under investigation.

Thanks for the advise on the EFI oh Wise One!

Lovehamr

Quite correct “old guys” pretty lame of me, argue that with my adult kids. Where your comment “cooler that the WRX is a cop out at best” comes from is a pretty lame assumption as well. No implication on my part intended in relation to what cars are cooler than others.

“shows a resignation that one doesn't find often here in the states”

The assumption that my intent is to comply is the end of the matter is also quiet lame.
The cost of ongoing fines is my only deterrent for not complying until more acceptable alternatives are implemented. If you can afford the fines go for it!

“However, a basic tenant of a democratic society is the ability to change the rules if a large enough segment of the population deems that desirable”

Agreed, that’s what the post was intended to be about regardless of how badly it was viewed!

Dave

[Rebel1]

Rexee .... Don't go gettin all jealous about my tomb experience....that was the last time I ....well...you know

Also all the Victorian (and many of the interstate) members are away for a dirty weekend. The excuse they're using is a Shelby weekend. Look Here for details:

2005 SHELBY FESTIVAL (Australia)

When they return from the weekend away they will prolly come in here tell all sorts of tall stories as to what a good time they had.

Maybe after they sober up you'll get the good oil regarding contacts in Victoria and the best way to handle your problem.

Great bunch of fellas with in-depth knowledge of the Victorian situation.

Cheers

[BMK]

Hi all

The asumption that all things can be rectified/fixed by throwing a late model EFI motor in, is not quite right and at the best a very expensive option.



OK, you take out the non conforming motor. Grab a late model EFI and away you go now complying......noooo waaay!!!!

Sorry, thats only the start as the entire Cobra front to back must now comply with the EPA requirements for that motor.

I know this example sounds silly, but this is what we are told.



Let me use the example given last Wednesday by the EPA staff.



I own a 1985 F100 long wheel base pick up truck. It has a worn 351 Windsor motor and manual box its blowing oil past the rings and needs replacing. It does not run that well on Unleaded fuel.

(The 1985 being prior to 1988 has no EPA fittings or specifications/requirements.)

In my yard I have a year 2002 EFI 351 Lighting motor and box.

I plan on pulling the old motor and placing the newer 2002 EFI 351 motor and box in. What do I need to do after I place the new motor into the F100????

The EPA reply 'floored me' and I'm still confused..

The reply was that the engine number must be checked by Police or the Transport people (VicRoads/DMV) to change the engine number. Simple I assert.

The rest of the reply is...

If you place a motor out of the 2002 F100 pick up truck into your old pick up truck you have upgraded the truck to 2002 standards.

Fantastic I say as its now worth four times the price and its a registered 2002 F100 now..

But seriously, my understanding of the reply is....

I must get the entire F100 up to 2002 EPA specifications. We are talking 'Cat converters', new exhaust to meet 90dBA and sealed fuel tanks etc. etc.

Just take a look at the EPA specifications for a 2002.

This is fact, but I'm ready to let someone correct me. Hopefully I'm wrong. Because if this is right then we have a bigger problem than I first imagined.

Bernie

[ledge]

Sorry to say Bernie but when you put a modern motor in a car it also has to run the relivant emmission for that motor . So whatever was hooked up in the 2002 car will need to be hooked up in your 1985 vehicle but only what is required for the motor , You wont need to changes suspension or brakes or anything else just Engine stuff.

Paul

[BMK]

ledge

Yeah thought I was on the right track with what I was picking up from the EPA.

Guess LPG is starting to look like an option if you get caught up in this loop.

The extreme is simple things like the after market air cleaners and air pods etc. These are the types of things that ready seen and start a full scale check of the engine.

Bernie

[BMK]

Hi all

Just an update.

I have been talking with the race shop where I built my Cobra and they were telling me that more and more of the cars are being put off the road. They have had six or seven customers in for changes.

It appears that the inspectors look for obvious changes to an engine. Then if there are changes, the information/engine number/rego details are then checked on computer or records and the correct EPA pollution equipment is identified for that engine.

If your records show that an Engineer has approved your engine with a turbo then no problem there. They just look for something else.

They then look for these changes based on the records of your car.

The obvious things are;



Incorrect air filters,
Blow off valves on turbo cars
Addition of turbos as after market,
Addition of headers/extractors as after market
Big bore exhaust systems
Bonnet scoop
Under body lighting
Exhaust flame throwers
Non original looking fittings/lines etc. etc.
Fuel systems not having carbon cannisters and closed loops etc.etc.

The majority of the cars that have been served with notices have these types of fittings and have removed/blocked off the pollution equipment.

$600 fines are being issued for exceeding the dBA levels and fines up to $3,500 have been issued for removal of pollution lines etc. etc.

Vehicles are photographed with registration numbers etc. recorded. (See above "Posts").

Yes this checking is only new and we will see more of this as the EPA move around Victoria with both Police Highway Patrol, Drug Squad and VicRoads support.

No doubt we will hear more about this in the auto magazines.



Bernie

[BMK]

Just a follow up on some of the EPA recent hit sites.

Major road blocks testing at;

The Southern 80 boat races
Ballarat Swap meeting
Geelong Road closed completely
The Esplanade and Nepean Highway closed completely

And they have over 3,000 cars off the roads and or infringement notices issued. Not bad for a group that has been running for a few months.

Bernie

[David Hodgson]

Crikey

[Tenrocca]

Bloody hell. As if you guys dont have enough to put up with all the crap weather Makes you wanna pack up and move to qld....

[Shelby400]

MOVE TO QLD????

People will start to think that there is more up there than just a place to retire.

[NASSTY]

Interesting stuff to say the least.....

Bernie, thanks for all that info. It poses a delema for use builders out there. It seems to me that about 1/2 the cobras in Oz have some sought of modification for their engines. In 3 months 5 cobras (as quoted by Bernie) have been caught and 3000 infringement notices given. My cobra build started before 1/1/05 so it is exempt from current ADR's. Instead it needs to comply with ADR 37/01 which means I can use an AU 5.0ltr windsor back to the 1/1/99. Looking at the times recorded by stock 302s at Heathcote, the average time would be around 14 seconds flat. Quicker than most cars on the road but lineball or slower than many other modern sports cars. I can see the HP wizard waving a wond to fix the problem after registration but what's the point if you stand a good chance of getting caught, especially if the EPA target car meets etc.

Perhaps the only option is to fit a late model engine that has the most cubes, fattest torque and highest HP you can legally find. A 290kw Boss or 297kwLS2

The Ford V Chev arguement that started to brew in the Shelby Fest thread indirectly raised this point. A stock Gen3 was competing against similar capacity Fords which it would be probably safe to assume had had some sort of massaging (which could make them non-complient as far as the EPA are concerned). I'm not starting the same arguement in this thread but I can see a delema for builders like myself who may need to find as many legal HP's as they can if the EPA continues it's current policy.