EPA Busted

[rexee]

Hello All

I have a little problem with the EPA, noise (110Db) and emission controls, 460ci with a barry grant carb, I probably don't need to say much more about that!. EPA requires it to be returned to EFI (1992).
I haven't got any of these EFI components, tried a few, eagle, ftrucks suburban imports etc. with an estimate of about $6000 for used systems that will require a loom and probably replacing the working parts as well.

I guess I'm looking for an alternative maybe someone knows of an EFI for a 1992 460, aftermarket the EPA has OK'd or maybe something like a GasResearch LPG , disappointing but what can you do.

Any suggestions welcome. It's not really a little problem and there's not much I can say about that either!!! Except, lucky I got home, I think the wallopers wanted to hang me on the spot.

dave

[BMK]

Dave

See the PM I just sent

Bernie

[750hp]

Dave, you might want to give Don Pilling from SnakeBite a call on 07 5529 0877. He did a lot of research recently for EFI 460 options. I have a horrible feeling that he couldn't find any solutions for latest EPA regs. Do you only need to meet 1992 regs, or current?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WDVW

Tough break for you...

[pneall]

Did you get busted by one of these new road side measuring machines that can take noise and emissions as you drive by?? or was it just a random check by the money grabbing Vic authorities?

Hope you can work this through. Its going to be hard (read expensive) to convert or purchase another EFI motor that will comply.

Phil

[rexee]

I have to comply with 1992 regs for emission controls ARD37. I've heard that the 1992 efi was great for winibago, don't know about a cobra. The car was first registered in 1998.

I have found a 460EFI engine, however the cost and that it's 20 years old generally means alot more expence. est. $7000

Random ckeck. The EPA were in town located at the police station and the wallopers drove round hauling in the punters that made any noise. Apparently about 200 cars were tested on the one night.

I'm leaning towards LPG. GasResearch do a pretty good setup. Maybe if I can find a EFI a little more current the EPA might come to the party. The EPA have given me until the 29-04-05 to get it fixed but I can apply for an extension. These guys are pretty serious so I don't like my chances for an alternative EFI.

What I,d really like to try is: can a carbie on a 460 be tuned , have emission controls added to comply with ADR37?

Dave

[pneall]

Dave,

LPG wont pass 2004 stds but should be OK for 1992. I have used gas research gear on an XJ6 Jaguar and it worked really well.

Go gas . with 460 ci you wont notice the difference and if you up the CR it will go even better. Stuffs the boot space though.

Phil

[lovehamr]

Man, first you guys lose you guns now you're losing your carbs as well. Did we have a bunch of people from California (PRC) move over there or vice-versa? LOL
Steve

[BMK]

Hi all,

Here's a little information on options and what's going on.



Firstly, I have had first hand experience with the EPA ( recently).

Some background on where this has started.



The State of Victoria (Government Ministers) have been getting a lot of flack over the behaviour of a large group of drivers in Melbourne streets, who have been doing burnouts, drifting and drag racing.

We have all seen this on television and the responses of the Government and Police. The recent seizure of the WRX STI and ban on driving for the owner were well publicised on ACA and news. This was the guy who was photographed by Police doing 150+ three times in the street a 60 zone. Drag racing.

A direct result (knee jerk) of this is the EPA task force. Set up as a random travelling show/workshop. Tools, jacks, dBA equipment etc.etc.



Over the last few months they have hit most major events in Victoria. These include the Southern '80' boats, Ballarat Swap etc.

You get no warning on their location (unless you have a channel 40 CB for trucks). They combine a Breath Testing Station, Drug Dog Search, Road Worthy checks, Warrants search and EPA. You are directed into one or a number of lanes.

Additionally, (Ballarat as an example) they have random Police patrols intercepting vehicles and taking them back to the Police Station where the EPA test sites are set. Here you have a noise check and check of running parts of the vehicle.

Over four hundred cars were checked during one three day raid/check in a town (see EPA press releases)

Non EPA compliant vehicles are issued with a notice to remove engines, parts etc.

Vehicle full details are recorded and non compliant parts are photographed in the vehicle and recorded on the computer in the event that you the car is/are stopped again. Pictures are recorded.

Fines are $600 for noise and up to $3500 for EPA tampering and they have been issued to some motorists.

To the extreme and they are extreme - notices are and have been issued for - air cleaner pods, PVC valves etc. that are not fitted or incorrectly fitted or blocked off.



OK here's an example: the air filter is not original and that therefore is non compliant and saw an EPA notice. A recent notice was issued to a modified vehicle for not having a carbon cannister in the fuel system.

A VK Holden driver was cited for noise at 96dBA. Fined and engine and car photographed as he had an after market air pod in the front of the engine.

WRX STI off the road for after market big bore exhaust and after market alloy fittings.

Holden six cylinder off the road for a blow off valve and lowering kit.

They are taking 'no prisoners' I feel they are doing a pretty good job in getting the idiots off the roads. I'm sure I speak for every Cobra owner when I say we are not about doing burnouts in shopping carparks, streets or racing through streets.

However, the net that they are casting out is picking the genuine vehicle enthusiast up in a Cobra or Street Rod and invariably the EPA will find something that is not right...

The Deputy Commissioner of Police Bob Hasting has been recorded as saying he wants every idiot in modified vehicles off the road. There is no place for these type of hoons and their modified vehicles, he has been recorded as saying. I agree with his comments here.

I must say I do agree with most of his comments but question why we are being caught up with idiots.

I recently had a brief meeting with Ash Ward the Transports SA representative on modified vehicles. His advice was clear.

Every Cobra manufacturer and parts supplier in Australia must get together and come up with a set of guidelines that are relevant to their cars and parts. This has successfully been done by the Australian Street Rod Federation.

You now see Street Rods being registered with carby motors etc.

Ash Wards' advice was clear that we cannot sit back and shoot from the hip. We must get together and do something.

Guidelines could follow the Street Rod Federations'.

I guess the Shelby weekend at Easter will possibly provide a good starting position for discussion. And no doubt you guys will hear first hand what is going on.

Just be warned that this is the biggest threat to the existance of kit cars in Australia (Victoria particularly). This will not go away.

To date five Victorian Cobras have been served with notices.

Three others are on notice. One has even been told to take the engine out and replace it with an engine from the year of registration.

Sorry about the negative feel of this "Post" guys, but we are really in trouble if we keep getting caught up with idiots and hoons when the Police and EPA cast their net.

Where to from here?

Bernie

[Chris D]

Wonderful summary Bernie. Thanks. Perhaps the next Cobra donor car should be a Toyota Prius!

Seriously however, we are stuck with the regulations as they stand unless we go the Hot Rod route or revert to Club Plates. Whilst wearing these would remove the freedom to go for a drive whenever one felt like it, it would force us to be more liberal in the delivery of (state) Club events as an excuse to drive our cars.

Without putting too fine a point on it, the lack of freedom of Club Plates is still better than having our Cobra's banned from the road as we're seeing. Used to be that a loud exhaust was the key to being hauled in; Now it will be the type of vehicle we drive.

The bulk of Cobras in Australia fall into the being first registered in 1995 - 2005 and it will be interesting to see just how hard it will be to get any of our non complying cars back to the EPA requirements for that year. I'd suggest that a dead stock Ford AU EFI V8 would fail without some very lean tuning. How about a Gen 111?

For those of you heading for the Shelby festival, have a great time and a happy Easter for all.

[David Hodgson]

I wonder how this affects cars from interstate that whilst visiting and get caught in the net?
My car is legal in ACT, except for exhaust noise level, yet Vic EPA would have a field day, '97 completion date but '68 windsor on leaded with carby.

[Ralph_C]

Originally posted by Bernie Knight
...
Every Cobra manufacturer and parts supplier in Australia must get together and come up with a set of guidelines that are relevant to their cars and parts. This has successfully been done by the Australian Street Rod Federation.
...

Bernie, I fully concur - but that is not me, so what can we do? On a different thread, (Ferrari TR250 Reproduction), Les said the combined clubs had a committee to look into this - anyone know the status? Can we help? (I do not know the regs and requirements well enough, but I can type).
On the same thread, there was also discussion about registering a 195? AC ACE as a street rod (Different engine, wheels, etc.) - anyone follow up this question? It may be quicker than waiting for new guidelines to be prepared.

[Leeroy]

It certainly will be an interesting time ahead with the EPA hot on the trail of vehicles which dont comply. Having recently registered my Cobra in Nov'04 you would like to believe that you are fully legal and relaxed in thought that you are free from regulators putting your car off the road. In my classic revival i fitted Gen3 inc. MAF, cats, o2 sensors, standard delphi ecu & legal Db levels so you would assume your vehicle is legal as it was at the time of manuf/registration. Only thing I have which might be considered illegal is a pod instead of standard filterbox & intake. So where is the info available to allow you to determine whether your ICV is legal??
Leeroy

[BMK]

Leeroy

One of the big questions that has been asked is..



"How can we comply with the manufacturers specifications when we are the manufacturer"

In better words we build ICV's -independantly constructed vehicles - so we comply with what we register.

Therefore, if the Cobra is registered in 1988 it must have the 1988 EPA bits on the motor. The motor must have a PCV and the fuel tank must have a carbon filter can. That's it.

If it was registered in 1987 then there are no EPA requirements on the motor.

The EPA guys know exactly what every year car/engine must have and look accordingly.

If you register in 2005 then you use an LS1 or a Quad 4.6 Ford. But how long before they ask for collapsible steering wheels and airbags...

Bernie

[albanycobra]

It's safe over here in the old WA.
No EPA.
No emission testing
The police are so busy confiscating 18 year olds cars
they don't have time to look at any one else's cars.
We only have to comply with ADR 37 when it comes to engines.

[Rebel1]

Gents, I reflect on my past statements regarding the combined clubs/maufacturers getting standards together. Bernies meeting with the SA transport Rep only reflects and confirms what has already been said.

Would you believe me if I told you Governments find the type of enforcement as depicted in Bernies post a PITA?. What Governments want is enforceable quality. That is, a set of auditable standards that are properly engineered, documented, presented to them, approved, and then enforced by the manufacturers or organisation taking the responsibility for the standard.

In our business lives we have to work to standards. These standards allow certain trades people to replace parts in all things dangerous. Like aircraft etc. None of us would be too happy if the local back yard technitian just replaced a toggle switch into the dash of the 727 we just about to board for a flight to sydney. Specially if that switch was purchased at Dick Smiths and was maufactured in the back blocks of China.

Governments give preferential treatment to companies who have implimented quality management procedures. They also give preferential treatment to organisations who have developed an auditable approved standard of manufacture.

That's really what the SA Transport fella has said. Develop your own standards of engineering, document them, impliment an open inspection process which stands up to scrutiny, and present all that for approval. Then enforce those standards rigorously, and we'll leave you alone.

Look, It really is no different to Bernies franchise having a standard for a hamburger. I'm told with some fast food franchises that the standards are so fierce that you can buy their product anywhere in the world and it is the same. Not similiar, exactly the same. Such is the standard that has been set.

This has to be a priority with the combined clubs and manufacturers.

If it does not happen there will be no cobra kit market because we will be at the beck and call of the ADR's as they apply to mass market manufacturers.

It has only just started fellas, wait till we have to install multiple air bags, ABS brakes, collapsible panels, engines which dont fit anymore....oopsy...we are there already with that one.

[lovehamr]

Good grief I'm glad I don't live there. You guys are getting hammered! In the states SEMA and other groups jump on the stupid stuff as soon as it comes out of someone's mouth.

"The Deputy Commissioner of Police Bob Hasting has been recorded as saying he wants every idiot in modified vehicles off the road. There is no place for these type of hoons and their modified vehicles, he has been recorded as saying."

And your response is "I agree with his comments here."?

I hate to tell you but it sounds like he means you guys to! It does sound like the street racing thing needs to be addressed but rounding up everyone who has a nice car and subjecting them to searches and inspections based on nothing but a whim is Draconian and shouldn't be tolerated. You know, I've always wanted to visit your country. Early in my career I worked with some of your military and based on that exposure I always thought that if there was another country on earth that was a freedom loving, swashbuckling place, it would have to be Australia. Then the great gun grab thing happened and I thought "How could this have happened to those guys I know?" I guess that freedom just got whittled away until no one could fight losing it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some raving separatist or loonie, in fact I've been in our country’s law enforcement community my entire adult life. In that time, one thing that I have learned is that the machine isn't where the problem is. It's not the "modified vehicle" that's the problem; it's the "hoon" (whatever that is. LOL) who is behind the wheel. Whacking someone’s pee pee because the air cleaner on their car isn't approved isn't going to stop street racing any more than chopping up all those guns has ended violent crime. It seems like you guys are loosing more than just carbs and cool cars and someone needs to speak up about it.

Guys, I certainly hope no one was offended by this post. It just sucks to read about fellow enthusiasts who are having there pursuit of freedom trampled under the heels of well meaning jackboots. Good luck guys.
Steve

[Rebel1]

Steve, It's really not as bad as you think....

Think of it this way. The Government wants nothing to do but to manage what they think they do best..that is to govern.

The gun grab got a lot of unused weapons out of the community. If you want to mess with firearms you can. Just join a club, learn to shoot, and they will leave you alone. If you have a rural property and you want to shoot vermin, you can, just apply with that reason and go buy your firearm.

As to our cars. You are right, it is the idiot behind the wheel. no argument. But isn't it better to know that the idiot doing burnouts in shopping center car parks is at least driving a vehicle with brakes that work, and a suspension thats bolted in with proper grade bolts etc. We maybe cant control the idiot behind the wheel but we attempt to make sure he has good machinery under him when he's doing it.

I would dearly love the combined cobra clubs to set the standards. In doing so we can address all manner of things we have no control over currently. Like engine size, induction systems, etc, just like the hot rod community have in Australia.

In fact, I would not be offended if allowable engine size was related to the drivers experience. ie. If you just have a normal drivers licence and have not attended and passed an advanced driving test, then you get restricted to X Horsepower. Obtain a competition licence by attending approved instruction and you can have X plus horsepower.

We expect our emergency vehicles( police, fire, ambulances) are driven by properly trained drivers. Why not the same for a powerful sports car driver?.

If the local police/EPA/transport inspectors knew all cobras were being driven by advanced trained drivers they would mostly turn a blind eye to most except blatent flaunting of road laws.

Offended?....not on your life. Australia is, as you described, a great place. One of the safest and best living standards in the world. But, like in the military, we have all to look after each other and set laws to ensure that that happens.

Come on over and we'll show you what swashbuckling is all about. We invented swashbuckling . We'll even let you sample some of our local ales. You'll then wish there were stronger laws about poisoning tourists.

No offence taken lovehamr. It's just not what it appears.

[Shelby400]

Bravo Les, well said.

[PCC]

As a relative "outsider" I think there is a bigger picture emerging here.

Firstly, the Australian culture follows the american one in many ways.

From a car perspective HP rules the day, something which has probably materialised out of the historically cheap fuel that both countries offer.

Across in Europe, there has been a drive towards power to weight ratio, again driven by the astronomical cost of fuel. What happened to the Jag XJ 220 - concepted to possess a V12 - produced with Metro turbo!!!

Secondly, we should always bear in mind that if you modify your car you always run the risk of being found out by the law - remember that part of insurance we all ignore - mod's, whether it be alloy wheels or pods - don't tell them and then make a claim after an accident - NO INSURANCE!!!

We all have to follow the standards when registering our Cobra's. Its those changes we make after that is in question. In this instance nothing has changed - modify from the original specification then expect to be caught out!

Legalities - nobdy like's them

Its a damn shame!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BMK]

Hi all

The SEMA idea would be good here.

An industry and enthusiast group that would represent importers, manufacturers etc.

In the first instance this could be the Cobra and GT 40's and associated suppliers.

They would obviously need to draft up a set of guidelines.

Bernie